Attribute Limits

[Bruno]

I can't talk about a "realistic" game, because I get the distinct impression what folks mean when they say "realistic" varies wildly.

I do run a Dungeon Fantasy game, and I have completely arbitrarily limited people to 20 or less, plus their racial attribute modifier, unless the attribute is one heavily associated with their archetype (As per the DF rules).IE: I use it to enforce niche protection, not for "realism".

For a minimum I do it slightly differently, the minimum is the worst of 8 or (8 + racial modifier). I enforce the DF recommended 50 point disad limit, not to enforce some sort of statistical norm but to protect my players from themselves. A low attribute is a really bad idea in a dungeon crawl.

I haven't had anyone even bump into the 20 barrier, so it's mostly an abstract restriction. They've got other things to spend their points on.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by LazarusDarkeyes

OK, how about a different angle. I suspect most here would not allow a human character in a 'realistic' fantasy game to buy ST 40 [300].

Assuming that is true, how high would you let it go. Why is YOUR limit where it is?

How high I would let it go would depend upon factors other than just ST. Size is probably the biggest other factor, but HT would be involved too. There are apparently human beings capable of lifting 1100-lb. vehicles (approx ST 30), but if someone tried to tell me that it was "realistic" for a 5'4" 220-lb. guy to have ST 30, DX 14, and HT 4 my funny-meter would go off. Realism isn't about point budget, it's about realism. In real life, ST will tend to correlate with weight, and low HT will preclude developing anomalous levels of ST. Also, ISTR that too much muscle mass hurts your flexibility, so I'd expect inverse correlation with DX at extremely high levels of ST.

-Max

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by LazarusDarkeyes

I'm curious for insights or comments from this forum. Does such a percentage limit I have been imposing make any sense? Does the limit maybe make sense but the % needs tweaking (alter the lower limit % or higher limit %)? What about having a small Unusual Background cost to exceed the limits (whatever they are decided upon)?

...or I can just scrap the limits altogether...

I have no problem with the concept of attribute limits. The ones you mention in the OP seem overly strict, but the main issue is how they work for you and your players. I'd recommend making them 'suggestions' rather than a hard rule, but I've also endorsed the idea of UBs for high attributes.

[Infornific]

For stats other than ST, I'd go with 15 or so as a cap. Beyond that gives pretty odd results. Note that Michael Jordan who probably has pretty near peak human DX was still unable to play baseball at a major league level. For ST, I'd allow it to go much higher but link it to the character's size. The problem is GURPS ST covers a wide range of abilities:

How hard you hit
How much you can lift
How much you can carry long term
How much structural damage you can take
A rough proxy for mass.

I would assume that a weight lifter has relatively high ST, plus Lifting ST and Lifting skill. I'm going to politely ignore how messed up Lifting skill is.

My own quick and dirty guide for realistic ST would be to base ST off of the cube root of useful body weight times 2, and then allow +/-30% variation. Add a -10% modifier for female characters if you want to be a stickler for realism. So if you want a character with ST 18, you'll need to be a huge fellow probably clearing 300 lbs (without much body fat.)

- DW

[cmdicely]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

GMs need to decide whether they want simple rules, or rules that encourage - without enforcing - an at least slightly realistic attribute value distribution, e.g. Elves being more dextrous than Dwarves.

Why, when you can have both? Requiring something akin to Special Exercises to exceed (racial average × n) in a basic attribute (where n could be 1.5 or 2, for instance) is both simple, consistent with the rest of the system, and encourages Elves being more dextrous than Dwarves (etc.) without imposing hard upper bounds.

[Kalzazz]

Id probably go with max of 18 if I was ever inclined to limit the max

And lowest Id allow might me 6 if I was inclined to limit the min

[Kaldrin]

Originally Posted by Bruno

I haven't had anyone even bump into the 20 barrier, so it's mostly an abstract restriction. They've got other things to spend their points on.

In my experience it's the same. I'm planning to run a 300 pt cinematic campaign and people submit character concepts (and the ones I've written myself too) rarely come around with very high attributes.

To put it bluntly, to the OP, you're wasting your time. Most characters will need points spent in other areas to be effective, not just in attributes. If anything, this is another vote for the 'run a session to create characters' camp.

[Orienda]

Originally Posted by Infornific

For stats other than ST, I'd go with 15 or so as a cap. Beyond that gives pretty odd results. Note that Michael Jordan who probably has pretty near peak human DX was still unable to play baseball at a major league level. For ST, I'd allow it to go much higher but link it to the character's size. The problem is GURPS ST covers a wide range of abilities:

Most sports stars, while they do probably have up to 15-16 dex and 20+ str, depending on the sport, have much more of their ability in the skill, considering the ammount of time they put into it.

Likewise most geniuses probably have IQ 14-16 with several levels of talent in their field of mastery. Of course the problem with one IQ stat is that in the real world, there are so many types of intelligence, and people can be brilliant at say, problem solving and have a horrible memory (and even memory can be subdivided into different parts that don't necessary correlate with each other).

[Infornific]

Originally Posted by Orienda

Most sports stars, while they do probably have up to 15-16 dex and 20+ str, depending on the sport, have much more of their ability in the skill, considering the ammount of time they put into it.

Likewise most geniuses probably have IQ 14-16 with several levels of talent in their field of mastery. Of course the problem with one IQ stat is that in the real world, there are so many types of intelligence, and people can be brilliant at say, problem solving and have a horrible memory (and even memory can be subdivided into different parts that don't necessary correlate with each other).

I'd say ST 20 is a bit high. My own quick and dirty measure of real world ST feats goes:

Snatch: BL*5
Clean & Jerk: BL*6
bench press: BL*7.5
Deadlift: BL*10

That roughly corresponds to the ratios for the world records in these lifts and gives a ST 10 character a basic bench press of 150, which seems reasonable. The world record for the snatch is about 469 lbs, which by this scale could be done with a ST of 22. However, in game terms the record holder probably had Lifting ST plus a high Lifting skill and a good roll, so I'd drop ST to more like 18 or 19. And the record holder, Hossein Rezazadeh weighs close to 360 lbs. That suggests a lower base ST for the overwhelming majority of athletes.

- DW

[Maz]

I don't put in limits, but I usually encourage a limit. That is, if I player relly wants to they can have it, but make it clear what is high and exceptional for the setting.

But even if you set a max I think it's wrong to set the same for all stats.

ST don't mind people boosting how high they want. It only matters for combat anyway.
DX I have a slight problem with anything over 15 as you then start to be able to do all DX-skills reliable even at default.
IQ is as DX a problem once you go over 15 because so many skills are based on it.
HT I never had to limit as players rarely take it very high. But I would encourage players to take Fit and/or Hard to kill/subdue instead. This is purely so that as a GM have a chance to effect them with HT-afflitions.