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Old 06-22-2009, 01:03 PM   #31
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Default Re: Missing Prereq on Speed-Reading

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Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery View Post
Kromm’s post (and my reply to nerdvana) doesn't have to do with a RW definition of speed-reading, but how it works in the game. If he says that the skill is supposed to allow for such, I don’t see a real value in arguing that that’s not what it says. You might have some more traction in contesting whether it should be so, but that appears to merely be a matter of taste, and a problem easily rectified by houserule.
That should is what I'm "on the soap box" for I guess. And yes, in my games that is how I've ruled the skill works. :)
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Old 06-22-2009, 08:21 PM   #32
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Default Re: Missing Prereq on Speed-Reading

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Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery View Post
Kromm’s post (and my reply to nerdvana) doesn't have to do with a RW definition of speed-reading, but how it works in the game. If he says that the skill is supposed to allow for such, I don’t see a real value in arguing that that’s not what it says. You might have some more traction in contesting whether it should be so, but that appears to merely be a matter of taste, and a problem easily rectified by houserule.
"This is the ability to read much faster than normal."

As far as I know, GURPS does not have an idiosyncratic definition of read. Hence, Kromm's ruling creates a contradiction. Aside from that, this is GURPS. If the result is terribly unrealistic, you should be prepared to back up a rule with an explanation of why it is the way it is, otherwise it's toast. Obviously, Kromm's opinion carries a lot more authority than mine, but that doesn't mean it's a better opinion. There really isn't anything further to argue. You can view real world psychology as worthwhile, or you can decide it has nothing to do with the operation of that skill in the game. If the former, there is "real value" in discussing whether what I'm saying is likely true, in fact.

Traditionally, GURPS has been more concerned with layering armor, bullet calibres, travel times, and the like, but that doesn't mean social sciences are excluded from GURPSification. GURPS Cops, Religion, Transhuman Space, Middle Ages I, and Japan, off the top of my head, touch on realism in more than a scientific-technical sense.
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Old 06-23-2009, 10:56 AM   #33
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Default Re: Missing Prereq on Speed-Reading

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
If you start going to outside sources to define gaming terms, you'll start thinking that Honesty means not telling lies, and owls are Nocturnal.
Point taken, but still, a great part of GURPS rules system is supposed to be in touch with reality.

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Originally Posted by pawsplay View Post
(...) Traditionally, GURPS has been more concerned with layering armor, bullet calibres, travel times, and the like, but that doesn't mean social sciences are excluded from GURPSification. GURPS Cops, Religion, Transhuman Space, Middle Ages I, and Japan, off the top of my head, touch on realism in more than a scientific-technical sense.
I agree, but the same problem you are pointing regarding social sciences is true regarding Theology, Philosophy, Religious Ritual, and some other spiritual areas and/or skills, too. As a quick example, Daoism wasn't exactly a religion (this is typical of many Eastern doctrines) and Lao Tsu wasn't exactly a theologian nor an occultist nor a philosopher, but according the RAW you would need to define him with improper skills as these (Theology: Daoism, Philosophy: Daoism, etc). And exactly like the issue here (regarding Speed-Reading), the inaccuracies around these matters aren't immediately obvious but to people with real formation.
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Last edited by demonsbane; 06-23-2009 at 11:16 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 09-17-2011, 12:15 AM   #34
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Default Re: Missing Prereq on Speed-Reading

Since this thread is undead and roaming the Earth anyway, I'd like to take a crack at it.

Call it a house rule if you like, but I'd require literacy for Speed Reading, and in fact never noticed that it wasn't listed as a pre-req. I took a speed reading class once, and I'd say the techniques learned probably wouldn't carry over to a language or orthography I didn't know. One of the major techniques (in English with a printed Roman alphabet, anyway) is to read only the top half of every line, because Roman letters, for the most part, can be identified by the top half alone. I wouldn't assume this is true in all writing systems. Another technique is to learn to read entire words instead of letters; this leads to the phenomenon where, as long as all the letters of a word are present, and the first and final letter in a word are in place, the sentence is still decipherable.

I speak only a tiny amount of Russian, but I can sound out Cyrillic. But I am nowhere as fast with Cyrillic text that I am with English. I firmly believe one must be capable of interpreting the language of a text before one can speed read it. I
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Old 09-17-2011, 02:47 AM   #35
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Default Re: Missing Prereq on Speed-Reading

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Originally Posted by Lord Carnifex View Post
Another technique is to learn to read entire words instead of letters.
I'm a bit surprised about this. Do you mean that there are people who can read with ordinary fluency in their native language who don't do this? Who must put the sounds together from the letters, not just for strange words, but for most words?
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Old 09-17-2011, 03:08 AM   #36
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Default Re: Missing Prereq on Speed-Reading

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Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
I'm a bit surprised about this. Do you mean that there are people who can read with ordinary fluency in their native language who don't do this? Who must put the sounds together from the letters, not just for strange words, but for most words?
Many people with audially-dominated language recognition 'pronounce' words in their heads when reading, yes. Did you know that silent reading is a /TL skill? People are commonly taught a language first by speech and only then by writing.
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Old 09-17-2011, 03:11 AM   #37
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Default Re: Missing Prereq on Speed-Reading

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Originally Posted by Lord Carnifex View Post
Since this thread is undead and roaming the Earth anyway, I'd like to take a crack at it.

Call it a house rule if you like, but I'd require literacy for Speed Reading, and in fact never noticed that it wasn't listed as a pre-req. I took a speed reading class once, and I'd say the techniques learned probably wouldn't carry over to a language or orthography I didn't know. One of the major techniques (in English with a printed Roman alphabet, anyway) is to read only the top half of every line, because Roman letters, for the most part, can be identified by the top half alone. I wouldn't assume this is true in all writing systems. Another technique is to learn to read entire words instead of letters; this leads to the phenomenon where, as long as all the letters of a word are present, and the first and final letter in a word are in place, the sentence is still decipherable.

I speak only a tiny amount of Russian, but I can sound out Cyrillic. But I am nowhere as fast with Cyrillic text that I am with English. I firmly believe one must be capable of interpreting the language of a text before one can speed read it. I
I read plenty fast, and my method is kind of special, and not something really conscious: I don't actually pay conscious attention to the letters, or even the words. what I do, is look at the area around the line I'm reading, so that when I get to the next line, my subconscious has already started interpreting it. I don't read the letters, or the words, just the text as a whole.
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Old 09-17-2011, 03:25 AM   #38
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Default Re: Missing Prereq on Speed-Reading

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Many people with audially-dominated language recognition 'pronounce' words in their heads when reading, yes.
Well, yes. But I had assumed that everyone is proficient at silent reading moved onto recognising whole words and phrases. I take it that isn't true?

I know I'm weird in this, because I was taught to read by word-recognition, rather than by sounds; as a child I was far better at silent reading than reading aloud. But I wasn't aware that it is common for adults to still "pronounce" internally while reading.
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Old 09-17-2011, 04:12 AM   #39
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Default Re: Missing Prereq on Speed-Reading

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Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
Well, yes. But I had assumed that everyone is proficient at silent reading moved onto recognising whole words and phrases. I take it that isn't true?

I know I'm weird in this, because I was taught to read by word-recognition, rather than by sounds; as a child I was far better at silent reading than reading aloud. But I wasn't aware that it is common for adults to still "pronounce" internally while reading.
You are taught to recognize the meaning of sounds but not written words. You start reading vocally, translating letters to sounds and understanding sounds. You move the letter/sound recognition from conscious skill (уміння) to unconscious skill (навичка). You stop actually pronouncing the sounds that your brain parses out of the letters. When you want to read fast and don't need the vocalize at all, your brain's internal subconscious processing still does it by default.

There are lots of things people associate in silly ways, often subconsciously, because that's they way their neural connections were built (through nurture or nature).
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Old 09-17-2011, 04:27 AM   #40
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Default Re: Missing Prereq on Speed-Reading

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
You stop actually pronouncing the sounds that your brain parses out of the letters. When you want to read fast and don't need the vocalize at all, your brain's internal subconscious processing still does it by default.
Except the sub-vocalization is a key element in memory retention. Hence why speed readers often do worse on comprehension tests because the often forget the details more often
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