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Old 01-08-2012, 07:51 AM   #11
nerdvana
 
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Default Re: Skill Question: Smuggling and Camonflage & Holdout

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Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
Ok, your reply to him just came across a little snippy and when someone is wrong its nice to corect them in a good way. Especuially if there trying to be helpful. Bills (WHSWHS) post was a nice example of pointing out the error which is why I pointed it out in my reply. There is a LOT of material in GURPS and often people go by what the name of something sounds like it means rather then the GURPS version of its actual game effect.
His reply pointed out he error and at the same time rather diplomatically pointed out a reason someone might have made the error.
I didn't mean to come across as snippy at all. Totally sorry if it seemed that way to you Jason.

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I'm thinking of merging the two skills together and allowing an optional specialization for each.
Which two? (as the question is about three skills)

That is a good idea also though perhaps.
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Old 01-08-2012, 07:59 AM   #12
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Default Re: Skill Question: Smuggling and Camouflage & Holdout

Now my own answer (now that I've slept and discussed it with my wife)...

I'm going to add Holdout-3 as a default for Smuggling. The reverse isn't true. Camouflage can sometimes be used instead of Smuggling for the same effect with the GM's (mine) permission.

Opinions?
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Old 01-08-2012, 08:42 AM   #13
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Default Re: Skill Question: Smuggling and Camouflage & Holdout

Camouflage is very different not to give it default in any direction (or it should be very low like Physician from First Aid-11). It deals with actually making object look like its environment and it's opposed by Observation.

Holdout and Smuggling are similar, of course. But Holdout does include some acting and other contolled activity not to show your concealed item (and even HT rolls sometimes to holdout in body cavities) as it has default from Sleight of Hand. Smuggling usually refers to totally passive countermeasure (though you can use Fast-Talk or other interaction skills to convince searcher that you are innocent but this is another skill). Both are opposed with Search and use very similar methods (as Search defaults to Criminology). I'd say default to both sides is no better than -5.
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Old 01-08-2012, 12:32 PM   #14
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Default Re: Skill Question: Smuggling and Camonflage & Holdout

I agree with Walrus; Camouflage is using the environment to conceal an object. I see it as heaping local brush or (in an urban setting) bits of rubbish or the like over something to hide it. You can also break up the outline of an object to make it harder to recognize. In all though, the object is mostly out in the open but you are modifying the surrounding environment to conceal it. It seems to me to be a more visual skill since you are just trying to break up the outline of an object and make it unrecognisable.

Holdout involves tricks to hide stuff in the nooks and crannies of the body. So you could hide something under your armpit etc. In this case you are moving your body and/or placing the object in such a way that it is hidden. For instance putting something against the small of the back or padding out a thigh holster under your shorts. It seems more tactile rather than visual, since you are trying to conceal the shape of something under clothing, or you are flexing or holding your body to pin something in place so it is hidden by your body. It has more of a physical component than camouflage.

Smuggling seems more like a battle of raw wits. In this case you are trying to hide a compartment or something in a vehicle or building against a search. Here you need creativity/imagination to come up with a way to hide things inside a structure or frame. The searcher is trying to figure out how you might have hidden things and where to look.

In summary, Camouflage is more perceptual, Holdout is more physical, and Smuggling is intelligence/creativity. I agree there could be some overlaps, but I think it would be so dependent on situation that I would only allow one to default to another under very limited circumstances.
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Old 01-08-2012, 12:58 PM   #15
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Default Re: Skill Question: Smuggling and Camonflage & Holdout

Actually I'm thinking of expanding it into a general skill called Concealment and having the following optional specializations: Holdout, Sleight of Hand, Camouflage, Smuggling.
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Old 01-08-2012, 04:54 PM   #16
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Default Re: Skill Question: Smuggling and Camonflage & Holdout

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Actually I'm thinking of expanding it into a general skill called Concealment and having the following optional specializations: Holdout, Sleight of Hand, Camouflage, Smuggling.
Or you could make it a '!' skill, maybe call it 'Hide!' and throw Stealth in there.
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