So is there pain in Heaven?

[JCD]

I'm looking at Heaven as a philosophical construct and how the experience there would inform the character of angels.

First, if there is no pain in Heaven, then a trip to Earth would be a huge change for your average Celestial. Perhaps pain control is why Celestials are so buff: Angels because they have the pain sensors turned off, demons because...Hey! It's just another day in Hell.

Second: Lying. No on can lie in Heaven. The language doesn't allow it. One can be mistaken. One can not fully inform someone. One can have a different opinion. But direct lying is a no no. This expectation will be one of the hardest for a Heavenly Celestial to get over, I'm thinking.

Third: The expectation of solidarity. For all their flaws, one has the expectation in Heaven that even the worst Dominican wouldn't consider a Warrior would put an axe into his back. Yell, scream, disagree? Sure. Attack? Pax Dei!

Fourth: A lack of want. Novalis somehow always has more cropland. No one's Cathedral ever gets filled to the brim. If everything is Essence, one wonders what scarcity there is in Marc's bazaar, which seems a contradiction.


It's been established that Celestials can differ or even be wrong, otherwise there was no reason to have an Angel of Judgment. So Heaven isn't perfect.

How does Heaven get around this? Where do you agree or disagree? It would seem that Heaven would need a heck of a lot more training then your average demon, who can be let loose with the admonition to wear clothes, pay for stuff, and don't kill anybody.

[Jason]

"Physical" (if not corporeal) pain should be possible, I'd imagine, given that it is still possible to shred one's fellow celestials to Forces in a fight. It's PROHIBITED, but there was one notable uprising awhile back...

Emotional pain also seems fair game. I imagine it would hurt quite a lot to find oneself in Heaven after dying in a car crash and find that you made it, but your husband (who also died in the crash) didn't.

This is in the Lower Heavens, of course. The Upper Heavens seem more likely to be unmarred bliss, which is why angels are quick to shoo humans up there so they can get the real Heavenly experience. I imagine it's not bliss through ignorance so much as bliss through understanding and acceptance, thanks to an increased sense of oneness with God.

[William]

Originally Posted by JCD

First, if there is no pain in Heaven, then a trip to Earth would be a huge change for your average Celestial. Perhaps pain control is why Celestials are so buff: Angels because they have the pain sensors turned off, demons because...Hey! It's just another day in Hell.

There is pain in Heaven; there is no war, due to the Pax Dei, but there is definitely pain. Michael's angels can duel, and injury can really be inflicted, under the proper rules. The lava of the Volcano will burn angels not immune to it -- burning is part of Fire. David's Catacombs have a cavern full of razor-sharp crystals that will slice off preconceptions. The experience is specifically described as painful, if illuminating.

Your second and third points are excellent. Another factor in Heavenly relations is that there is essentially no privacy. Resonances are said to be used quite frequently in Heaven, as a matter of course in social relations. There shouldn't be any need to hide anything. The concept, as well as the concept of respecting privacy, will be something an angel needs to pick up.

If everything is Essence, one wonders what scarcity there is in Marc's bazaar, which seems a contradiction.

Knowledge, such as scientific skill, tutoring, or news from Earth. Anything that takes artistic skill or manual labor to create from Heaven's raw materials. Services like performances, sport, or administrative duties.

How does Heaven get around this? Where do you agree or disagree? It would seem that Heaven would need a heck of a lot more training then your average demon, who can be let loose with the admonition to wear clothes, pay for stuff, and don't kill anybody.

Incessantly screwing people over at the first opportunity, however, makes for an unprofitable stay on Earth. Demons grew up in the most anti-social society possible; they will need intense training in things like not insulting the policeman, or showing up on time to a Role's job. There's a lot of socialization involved in being willing to put money in a bank when you get some, and trusting that the bank will not attempt to screw you out of it when you try to get it back.

[JCD]

I have no idea what happened to this post, but it was terribly garbled and is now repaired.

Originally Posted by William

There is pain in Heaven; there is no war, due to the Pax Dei, but there is definitely pain. Michael's angels can duel, and injury can really be inflicted, under the proper rules. The lava of the Volcano will burn angels not immune to it -- burning is part of Fire. David's Catacombs have a cavern full of razor-sharp crystals that will slice off preconceptions. The experience is specifically described as painful, if illuminating.

Your second and third points are excellent. Another factor in Heavenly relations is that there is essentially no privacy. Resonances are said to be used quite frequently in Heaven, as a matter of course in social relations. There shouldn't be any need to hide anything. The concept, as well as the concept of respecting privacy, will be something an angel needs to pick up.

Thank you.

I think the privacy is a huge point too, and I'm kicking myself for not seeing it. The proper arrangement of angels can pick out pretty much anything out of a targeted Celestial.

Add to that the likelihood of the Inquisition* having a few sit downs with the angel before he goes Earthside, and it is comedy gold. (One caveat: the 'right' to privacy varies quite a bit from culture to culture, for reasons as disjointed as family values, economics or sheer barriers of politeness. FWIU, India has no sense of privacy, but with the population densities involved, how do you arrange it? But they also have social lying, which causes it's own Celestial problems)

Knowledge, such as scientific skill, tutoring, or news from Earth. Anything that takes artistic skill or manual labor to create from Heaven's raw materials. Services like performances, sport, or administrative duties.

True. I was thinking more along the lines of labor and crafts, though even that might be dirt cheap.

Incessantly screwing people over at the first opportunity, however, makes for an unprofitable stay on Earth. Demons grew up in the most anti-social society possible; they will need intense training in things like not insulting the policeman, or showing up on time to a Role's job. There's a lot of socialization involved in being willing to put money in a bank when you get some, and trusting that the bank will not attempt to screw you out of it when you try to get it back.

I don't agree fully. While Belial, Valefor and Malphas probably have the least ameanable social institutions for transitioning to Earth, I believe that most of the others have sufficient human like institutions to make it less of a jump.


*One wonders how much investigating that the Inquisition has to so in Heaven only Angels. Mind, the last time they didn't do ANY checks was a disaster.

That said, I wonder if there is a huge worldview change, where the Hall Monitor/English Bobby, helpful Judgment flutterwing is suddenly replaced by the Vic Mackey sort of Judge...

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by JCD

Fourth: A lack of want. Novalis somehow always has more cropland. No one's Cathedral ever gets filled to the brim. If everything is Essence, one wonders what scarcity there is in Marc's bazaar, which seems a contradiction.

For some, the very act of trading is a pleasure. Those people wouldn't be happy in Heaven if they had to give up something that gives them pleasure and hurts nobody (including themselves).

Originally Posted by Jason

Emotional pain also seems fair game. I imagine it would hurt quite a lot to find oneself in Heaven after dying in a car crash and find that you made it, but your husband (who also died in the crash) didn't.

Emotional pain definitely exists in Heaven. You Are Here describes a stream in Heaven that was created by the tears Novalis shed for the Fallen who took part in the Rebellion, and Superiors 3 indicates Blandine never completely recovered from the pain of losing Beleth to Hell. Since Archangels can feel emotional pain while in Heaven, it's highly unlikely that Servitors and Blessed Souls are immune to it.

[tHEhERETIC]

Originally Posted by JCD

I'm looking at Heaven as a philosophical construct and how the experience there would inform the character of angels.

First, if there is no pain in Heaven, then a trip to Earth would be a huge change for your average Celestial.

Of course there's pain...especially if you're into that sort of thing. ;)

Originally Posted by JCD

Second: Lying. No on can lie in Heaven. The language doesn't allow it. One can be mistaken. One can not fully inform someone. One can have a different opinion. But direct lying is a no no. This expectation will be one of the hardest for a Heavenly Celestial to get over, I'm thinking.

That's where I've had some fun with the Celestial language. I don't think "not fully inform someone" is really an option. It would be best written as a table, but since that's not really an option here...

large is spoken out loud. boldish is the direct meaning of the word. this is the character's thoughts/editorializing on the subject.

Wow! That's the most within a vague, undefined interval amazing well it is quite good cream puff hydrogenated dairy fat with sugar and vanilla added inserted into a manufactured pastry because if they were handmade like the sign says they couldn't possibly be this uniform I've ever 'ever' is an awfully long time. Pushing the envelope on the lie there tasted! I'll bet not a literal wager, the listener understands that they undefined 'they' referring to whoever makes them a bit circular there, good thing I'm not a seraph oops I'll bet Dom heard that make them fresh here at the county fair! place full of hucksters and homespun braggarts, junk food and faux folksiness My apologies to the seraphim here, but really why would you be at a county fair?

Mind you, it took me nearly fifteen minutes to write "Wow, that's the most amazing cream puff I've ever tasted! I'll bet they make them here at the county fair!" But yeah, with that much detail embedded in each word, it's impossible to construct a lie.

[Azel]

I must say I love the linguistic breakdown. Embedded meaning, nuanced inflection, and unspoken commentary, all inherent in human spoken language. To imagine beings who can know: truth v. Truth v. non-truth, personal integrity, subjective reactions & responses, and the social/power motivations interconnecting actions, everything is essentially an open book. But that's expected where representation does not form a mediating barrier.

And you also deserve kudos for the effort, too.

However, I'd also say Heaven -- being Heaven -- has mastered the 'tactful silence.' Can't lie, but people would likely know when it's best not to push someone into distress. No walking up to older archangels asking, "Do you still miss Lucifer? How does that aching love feel? I'll spot the coffee, discuss!" (But I adore chutzpah of the naive munchkin who'll ever try...)

[William]

Originally Posted by Azel

Can't lie, but people would likely know when it's best not to push someone into distress. No walking up to older archangels asking, "Do you still miss Lucifer? How does that aching love feel? I'll spot the coffee, discuss!" (But I adore chutzpah of the naive munchkin who'll ever try...)

I think the appropriate response to that sort of social blindness would be for the Archangel in question to open up a direct mental connection to the asker and show them.

[JCD]

Heretic, I love your work.