[DF] Armor Cost and Low Tech

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Kazander

Sure, but current pricing in LT isn't economically consistent with DF.

Why would anyone pay x30 for their armor to get the weight reduced by 30% (Masterful Tailoring), when they could pay to get it Lightened by an enchanter for $100 (25%), or $10,000 for 50%? Even $10,000 is cheaper than Masterful Tailoring for a full suit that costs $350 or more (i.e. almost anything).

I'd like to see pricing on enhancements redone so there is some consistency across the purely mundane (Hardened Steel, Masterful Tailoring), the exotic (Dragonhide, Dwarven Plate), and the Magical (Fortify (+1DR is only $50!), Deflect, etc). Right now the mundane options are available, but in any simulated Fantasy economy a lot of them would never be used because of the exorbitant costs....and thus they wouldn't really exist since there'd be no demand for them.

I'm not sure about that. What this means is that you'd see Lightened, Fortified munitions armor (and wouldn't see any non-munitions armor that wasn't both), but is that a problem? There'll still come a point where it becomes more cost effective to hang your array of enchantments on better base hardware.

For instance, you wouldn't often put Lighten 50% or Fortify +2 on cheap-quality armor. And once you're already planning on Fortify +2 you might want to think about shopping in hardened steel...and maybe expert tailoring to reduce your chances of all that nice magic armor being bypassed.

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by Kazander

Why would anyone pay x30 for their armor to get the weight reduced by 30% (Masterful Tailoring), when they could pay to get it Lightened by an enchanter for $100 (25%), or $10,000 for 50%? Even $10,000 is cheaper than Masterful Tailoring for a full suit that costs $350 or more (i.e. almost anything).

Presumably so that they could get their armor Lightened and Masterfully Tailored, taking the total weight of the armor down to something like 35%. A number of options open up when you consider stacking mundane enhancements with enchantments.

Originally Posted by Kazander

in any simulated Fantasy economy a lot of them would never be used because of the exorbitant costs....and thus they wouldn't really exist since there'd be no demand for them.

You do understand that DF and realistic economies don't belong in the same paragraph, right?

[gjc8]

Originally Posted by Kazander

Why would anyone pay x30 for their armor to get the weight reduced by 30% (Masterful Tailoring), when they could pay to get it Lightened by an enchanter for $100 (25%), or $10,000 for 50%? Even $10,000 is cheaper than Masterful Tailoring for a full suit that costs $350 or more (i.e. almost anything).

Because mundane and magical options stack, presumably.

[Kazander]

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

You do understand that DF and realistic economies don't belong in the same paragraph, right?

Yes. I never explicitly said they did. That doesn't mean that mundane, exotic and magical armor enhancements can't coexist in the same fantasy game world. Current pricing is inconsistent with this option. A number of options simply never get used because of a terrible ROI, and others get overused because they're a 'steal'.

Originally Posted by gjc8

Because mundane and magical options stack, presumably.

Yes, but poorly and inconsistently with respect to effect gain vs price, depending on which enhancement route you go.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Kazander

Yes. I never explicitly said they did. That doesn't mean that mundane, exotic and magical armor enhancements can't coexist in the same fantasy game world. Current pricing is inconsistent with this option. A number of options simply never get used because of a terrible ROI, and others get overused because they're a 'steal'.

You use really costly options when you want something better than you can get with the cheaper options. Yeah, adventurer demand for masterfully tailored armor is probably pretty low, but why shouldn't it be? Not every king would buy that!

Fortify +1 and Lighten 25% being dirt cheap means that most metal armor will probably be magical, even if it is also cheap quality. So what? It's DF, you're shooting one-use magical arrows! Some of which cost more than the Fortify enchantment on your armor, come to that.

Originally Posted by Kazander

Yes, but poorly and inconsistently with respect to effect gain vs price, depending on which enhancement route you go.

Not sure what you mean by 'poorly'. Inconsistent gain vs. price...seems perfectly reasonable. Why would you expect the spectrum of gear quality to have some convenient, simple organization to it?

[Edges]

While magical improvements to armor (lighten, fortify, etc.) may be less expensive that mundane armor adjustments for the same effect, they are presumably susceptible to more countermeasures.

[Bruno]

Magical improvements stop working in Low Mana and No Mana, and critically important is that magical improvements suffer "armor damage" and fall off even if you are never tracking armor damage for mundane qualities.

If you aren't tracking armor penetration, I'd multiply the cost of magical enhancements by 5. (energy or dollar cost, which ever suits your sense of order and reason more).

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by Kazander

Sure, but current pricing in LT isn't economically consistent with DF.

What standard of living are DF enchantments priced assuming? You could always bump that up in order to bring prices more in line with the LT prices for improvements.

[Jabani]

I mean, a lot of the problem is comparing a game perspective ("I'm going to buy the best armor at the best price with the best enchantments I can!") with a de facto perspective ("Well, historically the average price of armor X was Y, so that's how much it costs"). I've got LT and would rather use those tables, but it's a DF game so the former perspective is ultimately what rules.

Part of it too is character creation issues vs. in-game issues. We're still at the character creation phase, which is more of an anything goes mindset in which the players will try to maximize their ROI, and in which it's somewhat harder to control the (lack of) availability of gear since there are just faceless tables to go by. Once in game, it should be a lot easier to manage ("No, +5 Fortified Plate isn't in today...or tomorrow...or ever," or alternately, "There's a glut of mail on the market and we're having a liquidation sale!").

And before anyone says that the GM should limit equipment availability from the get-go, I agree: I'm actually statting the characters from descriptions, so *I'm* the one trying to give the players a good ROI :).

You may want to just handwave that generations of delving or whatever means that there's lots of armor salvage on the market, and as such armor prices in general are halved and certain enhancements (I'm looking at you, Master Tailoring!) are much less expensive.

Makes sense. I may start with 75% pricing and see how that works, dropping it down if armor is still an exorbitant luxury lagging behind weapon quality, power item power, etc.

[Bruno]

For my DF game, I've cut armor down to 60% for most locations, but I charge extra for any coverage over hands, feet, and neck, largely to subtly encourage those locations to be slightly lower DR, and "handwaving" hand armor being well articulated enough that nobody has to sweat bad grip or ham-fisted. I'm also encouraging "cheap" armor - but don't forget that Cheap armor doesn't just drop DR by 1, it makes it easier to hit chinks in armor.

But I've also forbidden TL 4 armor, and adjusted cloth and leather and scale armor with some deliberately unrealistic weights so that the lower end of the DR range has upgrade paths that don't lead immediately to "get cheap thin plate". Purely for the aesthetic purpose of having people in cheap light armor not wearing DR 2 cheap plate or whatever.