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Old 06-16-2011, 06:51 PM   #1
CousinX
 
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Default [MA/LT] Blocking with Cloaks

In the handful of cloak-fighting demos and videos I've seen, the cloak was mostly used to entangle a weapon arm to make attacking more difficult (covered by the Armed Grapple maneuver), or foul a thrusting attack enough to make it miss (a Cloak Block). I'm nothing that even resembles an expert on the subject, but AFAIK, the cloak as a defensive weapon is pretty exclusive to European fencing.

Against a swinging attack, it seems like the cloak would be much less useful - basically, holding up a blanket to stop an axe. This might give you +1 DR if the cloak is thick enough, but it doesn't seem like the cloak would prevent the attack. The cloak could aid in a dodge or unarmed parry, but those are both different rolls than a block. The block itself is what I'm having trouble with.

I've looked through the Basic Set, Martial Arts, and Low Tech, and not seen anything that says that a cloak is at any disadvantage to block a heavy swung weapon. You could theoretically use the rules for Damage to Shields, but that applies to thrusting as well as swinging attack, which the cloak handles in different ways.

Thoughts?
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Old 06-16-2011, 07:12 PM   #2
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Default Re: [MA/LT] Blocking with Cloaks

Without checking, isn't the damage from imp attacks rather anemic against Homogenous cloaks, whereas the damage from cut is pretty decent?

I'm used to penalising Parries by the degree of weight difference, in any case, so I'd just use the same rules.
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Old 06-17-2011, 05:56 AM   #3
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Default Re: [MA/LT] Blocking with Cloaks

Look at the DR/HP of cloacks, they can protect against an axe, but the axe will just pass throught it losing 2 points of damage on average.
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Old 06-17-2011, 06:12 AM   #4
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Default Re: [MA/LT] Blocking with Cloaks

Parrying successfully with a cloak (or blocking to use the GURPS term) is definitely not about getting the cloak directly hit by an axe or whatever - it must be more about obscuring vision and body evasion to be a success.
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Old 06-17-2011, 07:48 AM   #5
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Default Re: [MA/LT] Blocking with Cloaks

I would think a sturdy cloak can be used defensively not to dissimilarly to a gladiator's net. A 'block' is really more like a parry -- sweeping the attacking weapon aside, but it is managed with the off-hand like a shield.
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Old 06-17-2011, 08:27 AM   #6
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Default Re: [MA/LT] Blocking with Cloaks

Cloak and coat fighting seems to be a universal (I know of examples in -V Anatolia, +1 Italy, +XV-XVIII Europe, and modern Spain and Latin America) but I only know of documented European arts which teach it. It does require less force and strength to parry a thrust than a cut.

It would be pretty rare that a cloak fighter would face a heavy swung weapon (it was a form for hunting or duelling or situations; if the other side had polearms and axes you probably had a proper shield). Dall'Agocchie tells students to meet high cuts with the cloak closer to the sword's hilt than its point (where they have less force); di Grassi recommends keeping the cloak well away from the body where you can use the "length, largenes, and flexibiliitie" of the portion hanging down below the arm to parry. A cut that has to move a heavy piece of cloth several feet before it can reach its target will definitely be weakened. In short, unless a trained cloak fighter has played against heavy swung weapons and has serious difficulty parrying them, I wouldn't worry about it.
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Old 06-17-2011, 11:10 AM   #7
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Default Re: [MA/LT] Blocking with Cloaks

I would just use the damage to sheilds rules, and count the Cloak's DR as "flexible" to represent that some force might get through to the fighter without having to damage the cloak first. (If of course you only succeeded by the Cloaks DB.)

This would and should apply equally to thrusting as to swinging, but swinging weapons have much more force and will more often overcome the cloaks inertia to impact the fighter.

I think it would be exceedingly rare to actually cut through a cloak with a swung sword. Try it at home if you can.
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Old 06-17-2011, 11:12 AM   #8
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Default Re: [MA/LT] Blocking with Cloaks

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris1982 View Post
Parrying successfully with a cloak (or blocking to use the GURPS term) is definitely not about getting the cloak directly hit by an axe or whatever - it must be more about obscuring vision and body evasion to be a success.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Figleaf23 View Post
I would think a sturdy cloak can be used defensively not to dissimilarly to a gladiator's net. A 'block' is really more like a parry -- sweeping the attacking weapon aside, but it is managed with the off-hand like a shield.
I think that both of these only apply if you succeed by a margin greater than the cloaks DB. Otherwise, you are just getting the cloak in the way of the weapon, and the weapon has a chance of penetrating/damaging the cloak.
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Old 06-17-2011, 11:20 AM   #9
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Default Re: [MA/LT] Blocking with Cloaks

Quote:
Originally Posted by aesir23 View Post
I think that both of these only apply if you succeed by a margin greater than the cloaks DB. Otherwise, you are just getting the cloak in the way of the weapon, and the weapon has a chance of penetrating/damaging the cloak.
Yes, that makes sense.
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Old 06-17-2011, 06:50 PM   #10
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Default Re: [MA/LT] Blocking with Cloaks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Without checking, isn't the damage from imp attacks rather anemic against Homogenous cloaks, whereas the damage from cut is pretty decent?
Quote:
Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos View Post
Look at the DR/HP of cloacks, they can protect against an axe, but the axe will just pass throught it losing 2 points of damage on average.
Yeah, but that only matters if you're using the Damage to Shields rules. Which I guess may be the RAW answer: if you're worried about realism, use the optional rules designed to add it. Still, that answer treats thrusts and swings identically, and it seems to me that blocking with a cloak is, much like an unarmed block, intended for specific kinds of thrusting attacks, and decidedly less useful against heavy swung weapons.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
I'm used to penalising Parries by the degree of weight difference, in any case, so I'd just use the same rules.
Where are those rules?
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