[LT] Rated ST for bows and crossbows

[Anders]

Is there anything that says what the maximum Rated ST for various bows and crossbows is? I have looked in Low-Tech and LTC:2, but apart from a short note on LT 78 I have come up empty-handed.

Suggestions? Or am I just unusually blind?

[Bruno]

In the playtest, that discussion basically got derailed by some profound objections to how GURPS handles muscle-powered damage >.>

Leaving the only "Official" cap being the traditional 3xMinST cap.

I'm personally considering "+50% MinST only" and even toying with "You gets the MinST as your rated ST and you likes it or leaves it" as a (very crude) patch.

[SuedodeuS]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

Is there anything that says what the maximum Rated ST for various bows and crossbows is? I have looked in Low-Tech and LTC:2, but apart from a short note on LT 78 I have come up empty-handed.

Suggestions? Or am I just unusually blind?

There is no limit mentioned that I can find, only that steel crossbows can have a higher rated ST than wooden ones. Using 3x minST as the maximum may work decently well, and will give a reason to use steel crossbows (otherwise, you'd typically be better off tossing a windlass on a wooden crossbow).

[Anders]

My thoughts were ST 14 for self bows, ST 17 for composite bows and reflex bows and ST 20 for steel bow. I'll be back regarding crossbows. And yes, these numbers were more or less pulled from my rectal cavity.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by Bruno

I'm personally considering "+50% MinST only" and even toying with "You gets the MinST as your rated ST and you likes it or leaves it" as a (very crude) patch.

I prefer the second. Or min(ST,minST), specifically for bows, minST for xbows. Your muscle isn't providing the force that's moving the arrow. The mechanical elasticity of the bow/xbow is. It can only put in as much force as it's rated at. If you're not strong enough to take maximum advantage of that, it is reflected by your ST being lower than the minST with the usual results. It is annoying that there's no rule for the upper mechanical limits for bows composed of different materials and of different sizes.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

I prefer the second. Or min(ST,minST), specifically for bows, minST for xbows. Your muscle isn't providing the force that's moving the arrow. The mechanical elasticity of the bow/xbow is. It can only put in as much force as it's rated at. If you're not strong enough to take maximum advantage of that, it is reflected by your ST being lower than the minST with the usual results. It is annoying that there's no rule for the upper mechanical limits for bows composed of different materials and of different sizes.

The energy storage of a bow is roughly proportional to its volume, and thus to its weight, for a given design type. So you can have a short bow with rated ST 10, but if you double the mean cross sectional area, to a crude approximation, you double the energy storage. And in any case, if you double the energy storage for a given length of draw, you double the draw weight too (W = Fd). There's nothing inherent in the design of a short bow that allows only one possible thickness or draw weight.

I'm pretty sure we just assumed that the max ST for a bow of a given type was the same multiple of min ST as usual.

Bill Stoddard

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by whswhs

There's nothing inherent in the design of a short bow that allows only one possible thickness or draw weight.

No, but for a given bow with a given design, material, and weight there's a maximum amount of energy that it can give to a projectile. For a crossbow that is going to be the same every time, the amount stored when it is cocked. For a bow it could be less if you're incapable of fully drawing it, but then you probably should be suffering the usual penalties for a weapon you're not strong enough to use.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

No, but for a given bow with a given design, material, and weight there's a maximum amount of energy that it can give to a projectile. For a crossbow that is going to be the same every time. For a bow it could be less if you're incapable of fully drawing it, but then you probably should be suffering the usual penalties for a weapon you're not strong enough to use.

The fact that all "short bows" have the same stated weight is purely a game convention. It's exactly like all suits of armor of a given type weighing the same, whether for a skinny man 5'2" or a big burly one 6'6". It's not physically realistic, and not intended to be; it just keeps character creation a little simpler.

GURPS has, for example, the category of "short bow." That's a bow of a certain range of lengths, and therefore with a certain draw length, which is one of the two key factors that determine how much energy it can store. The other factor is the draw weight. Each bow has an inherent draw weight, which is not a function of its length, but is a function of its material and cross-section. One short bow could have 2x the draw weight of another short bow.

The GURPS Basic Set just ignores the fact that a bow has an inherent draw weight; it assumes that the draw weight equals the ST of the user. So long as you are strong enough to handle the bow at all (Min ST rating), it's assumed that the draw weight is suited to your personal ST score. A ST 10 user could pick up a short bow and use it; a ST 15 user could use it too, and get more damage.

In Low-Tech, we went for a bit more realism. Each bow has an inherent draw weight, just like each crossbow. If you're ST 10 and you pick up a bow rated for ST 15, you can't draw it; if you're ST 15 and you pick up a bow rated for ST 10, you can draw it, but you don't get any more damage out of it that the ST 10 user, because the bow can't store any more energy for you than for them.

The fact that the bow rated for ST 10 and the bow rated for ST 15 really don't weigh the same is what we handwaved, as I said above.

Bill Stoddard

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by whswhs

In Low-Tech, we went for a bit more realism. Each bow has an inherent draw weight, just like each crossbow. If you're ST 10 and you pick up a bow rated for ST 15, you can't draw it; if you're ST 15 and you pick up a bow rated for ST 10, you can draw it, but you don't get any more damage out of it that the ST 10 user, because the bow can't store any more energy for you than for them.

This is how I'm saying it should be. The bow's ST determines the amount of damage it does. Your ST determines whether you can draw it or not (or do so weakly with corresponding penalties.) I must have misunderstood Bruno's point about minST.

Originally Posted by whswhs

The fact that the bow rated for ST 10 and the bow rated for ST 15 really don't weigh the same is what we handwaved, as I said above.

Bill Stoddard

Ideally I'd have liked a "a wooden/steel/dragonbone/etc bow weighing x lbs constructed as a shortbow/crossbow/self bow/etc has this ST rating," as well as a "these are the maximum STs wood/steel/dragonbone/etc can make" box but I understand this would have been difficult to quantify.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

No, but for a given bow with a given design, material, and weight there's a maximum amount of energy that it can give to a projectile. For a crossbow that is going to be the same every time, the amount stored when it is cocked. For a bow it could be less if you're incapable of fully drawing it, but then you probably should be suffering the usual penalties for a weapon you're not strong enough to use.

This seems to be pointing out the well-established fact that any given bow or crossbow has a specific rated ST.

The question in the OP is about what rated STs are possible for given types of bow or crossbow.