[LT] Question about the optional hit locations

[OldSam]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Use the hit location table from Low Tech, page 100, INSTEAD of the one from the basic set.

Ok, in the Basic we have:
11: Groin (-3) : Human males [...] suffer double shock from crushing damage and get -5 to knockdown rolls. Otherwise, treat as a torso hit.

>> Now, what is the updated text?

So long, all I know is:
11: Abdomen (-3): ...? - Groin is no longer a random hit location but abdomen includes the groin.
Also hitting the abdomen: Roll 1d; on 1, the vitals are hit.

Open questions:

- Which general effect has a hit to the abdomen? Apart from the chance of hitting the vitals or really the groin, (only) just like a torso hit?!
- What are the chances, that really the groin/testicles got hit and not the abdomen in general? Maybe a 6 on 1d?
- And what would be the (new/updated) penalty to explicitly aim for the groin/testicles?

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by OldSam

- Which general effect has a hit to the abdomen? Apart from the chance of hitting the vitals or really the groin, (only) just like a torso hit?!

Yes, although as noted repeatedly in Low Tech, armor on the abdomen is going to be thinner, so the -1 to hit in exchange for lower DR is the "interesting" thing. As noted up thread, if you're using the (optional) wound infection rules, abdomen hits are also candidates for special infection penalties even if the weapon used is clean and you're fighting in a sterile hospital room.

Originally Posted by OldSam

- What are the chances, that really the groin/testicles got hit and not the abdomen in general? Maybe a 6 on 1d?

Dan Howard (the author for this section) was suggesting a 1-in-6 chance upthread, if you want that sort of detail, but suggested a single die roll, for a crushing/piercing/impaling attack on 1 you actually hit vitals, on 2 you actually hit groin, 3-6 you actually hit Abdomen. I suggested on 4-6 or 5-6 you apply the special infection rules. I'm leaning more towards 5-6 with time and perspective.

Originally Posted by OldSam

- And what would be the (new/updated) penalty to explicitly aim for the groin/testicles?

-3 from the front only as per Basic Set. I don't see why it really needs adjusting. -4 (like a hand) is a little tempting, but I grew up watching a lot of Americas Funniest Home Videos. Also, hands get extra unpredictable movement due to being on the ends of arms which are frequently waiving about in combat, while the groin, at or near the center of mass, doesn't do a lot of unpredictable motions or waving about.

Admittedly with some of MY players it does a lot of PREDICTABLE motions but that's an entirely different issue, and often solved by an NPC taking a groin shot.

[OldSam]

Thanks a lot!

Originally Posted by Bruno

Dan Howard (the author for this section) was suggesting a 1-in-6 chance upthread, if you want that sort of detail, but suggested a single die roll, for a crushing/piercing/impaling attack on 1 you actually hit vitals, on 2 you actually hit groin, 3-6 you actually hit Abdomen. I suggested on 4-6 or 5-6 you apply the special infection rules. I'm leaning more towards 5-6 with time and perspective.

5-6 sounds good, only 6 would be ok for me, too.

I'm just wondering why there is no (official) statement about that point in Low-Tech?

Though IMHO it would be even better to have an errata-entry, a clarification in the FAQ or something like that for the Basic Set...
- Because in my experience it often happens that people reading the Basic Set are wondering about the high chances to hit the groin randomly etc. ;)

Originally Posted by Bruno

-3 from the front only as per Basic Set. I don't see why it really needs adjusting. -4 (like a hand) is a little tempting, ...

For example in comparison to the hit location "face" (which is -5), I'm still skeptic if -3 would be enough for the "real" groin...? (also taking account that the modifier is not only counting for melee-attacks ;)) I mean the center of the head normally is not moving very much, too, and if the face would turn away (but not the whole head) it would probably be a skull hit, which is even -7...

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by OldSam

I'm just wondering why there is no (official) statement about that point in Low-Tech?

Standard response to this question is "never came up during playtest". I'll see if I can write a passage expanding the Abdomen hit location in Instant Armour.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

Standard response to this question is "never came up during playtest". I'll see if I can write a passage expanding the Abdomen hit location in Instant Armour.

The interaction between Abdomen, Groin and a proposed new hit location in Tactical Shooting absolutely did come up during playtests of both books.

[DanHoward]

Of course the new hit location came up. I can't recall a thread talking about splitting up the Abdomen into sub-locations the way we did arms and legs.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

Of course the new hit location came up. I can't recall a thread talking about splitting up the Abdomen into sub-locations the way we did arms and legs.

There wasn't a specific such thread, but a mention might have been made of Groin hits occuring on 1 in 1d.

Personally, I'd want a system where Pelvis hits occur on about 2 or 3 in six, groin about one in six, vitals one in six and a hit in the lower abdomen/pelvic region that nevertheless manages to miss bone or vital blood vessels on the rest.

Of course, I'd also think that upper chest hits were Vitals on more than 1 in 1d.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Personally, I'd want a system where Pelvis hits occur on about 2 or 3 in six

What special effect would occur if this region was hit? Personally I'd be loathe to give more than a 1 in 6 chance for the character to roll to avoid a special infection regardless of how large the target is in reality.

I'm thinking of something like

Abdomen (area 11)
Roll (1d)....Location....Notes
1....Vitals....[1]
2....Digestive tract....[2]
3-5....Midriff....[no special effect]
6....Groin....[3]

Notes
[1] Can only be hit with a crushing, piercing, or impaling atack
[2] Roll HT-3 to avoid special infection (see Infection p. B444)
[3] Human males (and the males of similar species) suffer double the usual shock from crushing damage (to a maximum of -8), and get -5 to knockdown rolls.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

What special effect would occur if this region was hit?

It is in the manuscript for GURPS Tactical Shooting, but obviously I don't know what the final book will say.

You haven't seen it? During that playtest, I specifically asked that the authors for Low-Tech should speak to the author of GURPS Tactical Shooting to ensure that these hit locations made sense when used together.

[DanHoward]

I haven't seen it. I'm going to need this for the Instant Armour supplement.