The Low Tech You want

[mortolani]

I would like to see some changes on siege weapons. On Low Tech 3e they are too powerful. More powerful than some spaceship's lasers. And maybe some rules to try to do some cinematic things like... use a catapult to hit a dragon, a person... to use a human corpse as ammo...

I would like to see all stuff presented on the TV show "Ancient Discoveries" of History Channel. The Macedonian's siege tower would be great! The very first tank, moved by thousands of men... sweet.

I would like to see ancient ships too. At least a trireme.

I don´t want to see Fantasy Tech, magic or TL 5. MAYBE it could describe some rituals made before battle but never more than that. If you want to change book´s name, how about something like "Ancient Tech"?

And sorry my English.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

I still think that TL0 should have been divided into two when we had the chance...

I agree. The difference between Paleolithic and Neolithic is as big as the difference between TL2 and TL5. Lumping both into one TL is pretty arbitrary. If it was essential to keep "the age of networked small computers" as TL8, then I would have pushed TL3 and TL2 together; it's really hard to see them as different in terms of fundamental technologies. Except for some late-TL3 technologies that are really "early TL4," like the first gunpowder weapons.

Bill Stoddard

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by griffin

Does that mean that the name will remain Low-Tech or something similar with no chance of a name like Fantasy-Tech?

Yes. We said so well over a year ago in these forums.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Yes. We said so well over a year ago in these forums.

Which doesn't change the fact that the official Forum designation will continue to be GURPS Cabaret Chicks on Ice.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I agree. The difference between Paleolithic and Neolithic is as big as the difference between TL2 and TL5. Lumping both into one TL is pretty arbitrary.

Alternately, you could consider the neolithic part of TL1, bronze isn't really all that important a transition compared to the agriculture and pottery often lumped into the neolithic.

If it was essential to keep "the age of networked small computers" as TL8, then I would have pushed TL3 and TL2 together; it's really hard to see them as different in terms of fundamental technologies. Except for some late-TL3 technologies that are really "early TL4," like the first gunpowder weapons.

I'm tempted to call gunpowder a TL5 innovation showing up way too early - conversion of chemical energy to work through combustion after all. It certainly isn't hard to believe Earth's TL is often advanced in a science (weaponry), right in character for humans really. Hm, if you look for the TL breaks ignoring military equipment TL3/4 and 6/7 look a lot more doubtful.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Alternately, you could consider the neolithic part of TL1, bronze isn't really all that important a transition compared to the agriculture and pottery often lumped into the neolithic.

Mmmm. If you allow for some of the advanced stone working techniques, and smelted copper to Early TL1, and perhaps nudge bronze to mid TL 1, that works. Actually, I rather like that. It makes the TL2 horse nomads using well-crafted flint tools only retarded one TL in materials technology (and even then only in one area of materials tech, potentially).

[Frost]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Alternately, you could consider the neolithic part of TL1, bronze isn't really all that important a transition compared to the agriculture and pottery often lumped into the neolithic.

I would certainly buy that idea the TL0/1 boundary has always seemed fairly fuzzy. It does seem make sense to use the transition to agriculture rather than the smelting of metals as the break point.

Originally Posted by malloyd

I'm tempted to call gunpowder a TL5 innovation showing up way too early - conversion of chemical energy to work through combustion after all. It certainly isn't hard to believe Earth's TL is often advanced in a science (weaponry), right in character for humans really. Hm, if you look for the TL breaks ignoring military equipment TL3/4 and 6/7 look a lot more doubtful.

I don't think that these changes are really comparable, while the TL3/4 and 6/7 boundaries are some what fuzzy they do represent changes beyond just military technology. Take the improvements Maritime technology at TL4 or the appearance of complex electronics at TL7. Ok so these are gradual changes occurring over decades rather than sudden catastrophic changes and yes they were driven in part be military pressures but the same could be said for TL4/5 and 5/6. The lines are roughly where they ought to be based upon European experience.

As for gunpowder being TL5 this is absurd, while gunpowder devices follow the same broad principles as later combustion engines the actual technology to exploit it is orders of magnitude simpler. You can produce fire lances erruptors and crude rockets and cannon (which might not seem that crude if you try to copy them) with materials and techniques substantially less complex than say a use-full steam engine. The use of crude powder as an incendiary requires even less.

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by Frost

Ok so these are gradual changes occurring over decades rather than sudden catastrophic changes and yes they were driven in part be military pressures but the same could be said for TL4/5 and 5/6.

The 4/5 divide is, I think, one of the more defensible ones. The 18th century sees the spectacularly visible rise of steam power and the less visible but equally important Agricultural Revolution.

[Frost]

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

The 4/5 divide is, I think, one of the more defensible ones. The 18th century sees the spectacularly visible rise of steam power and the less visible but equally important Agricultural Revolution.

I didn't say that it was in anyway indefensible. I did however suggest that the changes occurred over an extended period of time and that the precise break point is ultimately rather subjective, which were amongst the arguments being used against the TL3/4 and 6/7 boundaries.

[Phil Masters]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

But the rules alredy recognize advancements within a TL. If you were going to cut TL0 up like that, it seems even more justifiable to expand the TL list back to 3E levels, or longer... not a good idea, IMO.

Honestly, the difference between early and late Stone Age is pretty much as great as the difference between any two adjacent GURPS TLs you might care to name. Well, TL4 to 5 might have it beat...