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Old 04-25-2006, 11:29 PM   #221
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Default Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech

Low-Tech and Mystic items all on one book? Perfect for fantasy campaigns (which happens to be most low-tech games). Brilliant idea! I support it whole-heartedly.
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Old 04-26-2006, 07:29 AM   #222
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Default Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luther
I think they never had. The usual fantasy gamer just use what's in his favorite setting book.
having just wrote a paper on futurist pantomine, its ties to european avant garde movements and its influence on later development in music and performance, i can assure you i have done a good share of history, art, and culture research.
it really isn't that difficult, i think.


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Originally Posted by Luther
Also most of us can make up fantasy stuff pretty easily and it differs a lot from one world (Tekumel) to another (Middle-Earth).
in that case, there's really no case to add rules for scaling armours, is there? ;)

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Originally Posted by Luther
OTOH historical informations are a pain in the *ss and are also much more useful to a wide range of games. Every fantasy world is based, more on less, on real world.
true, only, there is magic to take in consideration. what's the use of knowing the techniques of crop rotation in the middle ages, when my village has three mages able to create food or to magically enrich the soil?
or what's the use of knowing what are the social realities of reinassance, when you are running a cinematic swashbuckler fantasy campaign in a setting with orcs and faeries and caribbean pirates?

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Originally Posted by Luther
What simon_mas and others miss is that we don't want GURPS Economics or GURPS Architecture or GURPS Agriculture.
really? it doesn't seem the case... frankly, to me it sounds that you are talking as if they promised to throw all the possible realism out of the window and they couldn't care to make clear what is fantasy and what is not. which is clearly not the case, as they have said equally clearly.
i really don't understand what the fuss is all about.

this is the result of a very quick look at amazon.com

gothic architecture books: http://www.amazon.com/gp/search/ref=...c+architecture

medieval culture:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/se...culture&page=1

no hit on "medieval agriculture"

pirate history:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/se...pirate+history

and this is the first subjects that came to my mind. dozends of books, often with titles that suggest a very pertinent content ("A General History of the Robberies and Murders of the Most Notorious Pirates ", or "Medieval Culture and Society", or "Medieval World").

granted, the book might be pants, but the reviews are there for a reason, aren't they? :)

again, if the final GURPS Low-tech doesn't suit your likings and you believe there is too much fantasy, simply don't buy it. i don't think ol' Stevie will send the yakuza knocking at your door. :)

personally, i am not sure i will buy almost any book before i see it. last example: GURPS space. i am not into sci fi, hence i should have no use for the book and hate everything in it (i REALLY can't stand most space campaigns, ESPECIALLY pseudo-realistic ones, sorry). i looked into the book and now it's a must buy, with all that info on world building and alien (=race) creation...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Luther
We just want general guidelines to make our games more interesting.
i could reply that i want exactly the same (i can assume other posters want that, too), and that you miss that i don't want GURPS fantasy equipment, or GURPS magic item... or that what makes your game more interesting doesn't necessarily work for most other people. :)

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Originally Posted by Luther
If you think it's impossible to expand upon agriculture, architecture, economics, and demographics without writing and academic treatise, you are wrong. Just look at Medieval Demographics Made Easy and Stuff! for EABA. It can be made, you just need the right author(s).
so, you're basically saying that you would pay to have the same information in a GURPS book? since that work has already been done, and it's free on the net, and you (and hundreds of other people interested in the subject, including me) know of those websites already, don't you think that offering that same stuff would have no attractive to other people?

personally, given that the very basic information is already online and free in one way or another (wikipedia, or free RPG material, or shared knowledge from people in RPG forums), when i want to explore one of those area better, i do pick up treatise and "serious" book. no disrespect for anyone, but i simply don't trust a RPG book to have the same amount of usufulness, even if dedicated to the subject. unless, of course, the book in question is treating something like "jewish magic in middle ages" (like an ars magica book i ordered), or something directly relevant to the game world i am playing in (which doesn't usually apply, because i either play in out of print TSR world, or in my own capaign settings, when i play fantasy.)
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Old 04-26-2006, 07:31 AM   #223
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Default Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xplo
I'm pretty sure the point of reading GURPS books and playing GURPS is to have fun, not to impress random strangers or get a job.
indeed it is, but you have to appreciate that what you find fun (or what i find fun, for that matter), is not necessarily what the majority finds fun, amusing, or even vaguely interesting.
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Old 04-26-2006, 07:44 AM   #224
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Default Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company
You may not want it and I may not want it, but there are lots of people who do.
just to clarify. i have no problems with realism per se.
BUT: if adding "realistic stuff" to low tech means to make it less palatable to a larger audience, OR adding long paragraphs of rules on how 1'3'' sword is completely different from a 1'4'', in terms of bonuses, combat strategies, and what not, then i do have a problem.

this is exactly the reason why i never cared to buy GURPS martial arts. "wow, it includes all the 53 punching techniques of judo! YAWWWWN!!!!"

i am very happy that there is enough audence for sjgames to procude these books and still make money out of them. honestly. i am just not the target audience. just as i haven't bought that book, nor GURPS vehicles, nor a number of other GURPS books that, for one reason or another, simply weren't interesting for me, i won't buy GURPS low-tech if i don't like it, even if they don't add too much fantasy (and it seems they won't), and that they don't add rules to add a level of realism that i have no use for anyway (and, again, this doesn't seem to be the case).

i still don't see the need of getting so heated up on this "fantasy inclusion".
i think the problem is not "i am not getting rules for crop rotation", but "i am afraid that wanting to cater for the fantasy market will turn gurps into D&D".

if this is the concern, wouldn't it be more productive for everyone ("scared" posters, "pro-fantasy" posters, and the guys at sj games alike) to present it for what it is, rather than beating about the bush and pretending that the problem is just a 100 pages of rules that (at least from the hints they gave us) are very unlikely to be D&D-esque anyway?
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Old 04-30-2006, 03:40 PM   #225
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Default Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert
Even when one person is 4' tall, and the other 7'6"? How about 3' and 12'?
You're kidding, right?

EDIT: Hell, folks, I don't even keep track of encumberance at all. Rules for that would be completely dead space to me. Maybe basic size guidelines if the rules were simple if it was absolutely necessary to scale armor (pixie vs. human, say), but I really, really don't care about finding the exact historical weight would be for a 5'5 knight's chainmail vs. a 5'6 knight's chainmail.

I mean, common sense is a good enough judge for that. If a Pixie is wearing mail, it's wearing specially designed pixie-mail made by pixie blacksmiths, and did not purchase it at Ye Big and Tall Human Mail Emporiume.

Last edited by Professor Phobos; 04-30-2006 at 03:44 PM.
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Old 04-30-2006, 04:13 PM   #226
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Default Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech

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Originally Posted by Professor Phobos
I mean, common sense is a good enough judge for that. If a Pixie is wearing mail, it's wearing specially designed pixie-mail made by pixie blacksmiths, and did not purchase it at Ye Big and Tall Human Mail Emporiume.
Common sense includes the square-cube law and the other complexities of estimating what a reasonable weight and DR for pygmy or giant mail is?
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Old 05-01-2006, 01:32 AM   #227
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Default Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech

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Originally Posted by Polydamas
Common sense includes the square-cube law and the other complexities of estimating what a reasonable weight and DR for pygmy or giant mail is?
In general, I never, ever, want my gaming to involve the "square-cube law" or anything like it.
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Old 05-01-2006, 04:46 AM   #228
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Default Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech

A rule to get the difference of weight/encumbrance for races really different in build is necessary.
A Pixie w/couldn`t carry the same amount of weight than a Giant if both wear/carrie the aquivalent same things.
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Old 05-01-2006, 06:22 AM   #229
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Default Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal
But why do we buy ANY supplement for GURPS? We want extra "details" to populate our game worlds with.
Nicely put, though the $10,000 question from SJ Games's point of view is which very limited set of details will sell the most books to the most people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal
If you looked here, you'd see some material that I adapted from C&S for use with GURPS. Stuff that GURPS should have had a long long time ago but didn't. I can turn to HARNWORLD for material on running a household and the effects such decisions make on the players on a month to month basis - including cost of a city dwelling, rents, cost of food, cost of maintenance of self, etc. Details folks - details.
Be careful comparing what Harn (a specific world and campaign background) has to what GURPS (a generic rules system) has or should have. Harn does not provide values which are "typical" for a more-or-less Medieval society. So far as I can tell, the economics are based fairly specifically on late Medieval England, the background material for which is plentiful and relatively accessible but comes from a relatively small area and slice of time. It most definitely does not represent conditions for, say, later Medieval Germany, Italy, India, or China, or even early Medieval England and France, let alone other societies at other TLs. Now, if you want to apply the stuff from Harn to every TL 3 society you work with, that's cool. It's your game. But a GURPS book, by virtue of being generic, would have to cover a broader range of far less well documented possibilities, and consequently take up a lot more pages. Either that or provide something useless like "an acre of land produces $100 to $1000 worth of produce per year."
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Old 05-01-2006, 06:59 AM   #230
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Default Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by Professor Phobos
You're kidding, right?
No. The 4' tall guy has SM -1, the 7'6" guy SM +1. The short guy, even if he's broad like a dwarf, can reasonably expect his armour and clothes to weigh only about half as much as the tall guy's stuff.

Quote:
EDIT: Hell, folks, I don't even keep track of encumberance at all. Rules for that would be completely dead space to me. Maybe basic size guidelines if the rules were simple if it was absolutely necessary to scale armor (pixie vs. human, say), but I really, really don't care about finding the exact historical weight would be for a 5'5 knight's chainmail vs. a 5'6 knight's chainmail.
And I wouldn't expect a game to. 4" vs 7'6" is a wee bit different, though.

Quote:
I mean, common sense is a good enough judge for that. If a Pixie is wearing mail, it's wearing specially designed pixie-mail made by pixie blacksmiths, and did not purchase it at Ye Big and Tall Human Mail Emporiume.
But how much does it slow the pixie down? :)
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