Can you Parry a Bear?

[Imion]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Either way while that effect would act to concentrate the force on a smaller point of impact I'm not sure that it will matter much for the momentum of the attack and I think it's more that you trying parry against.

And thinking about it if you parrying by redirecting the point of impact, that's easier to do against small concentrated point of impact than a larger more diffuse one

AFAIK the question was about the 'effective weight' of an attack for the purposes of parrying. Specifically when and if you have to roll against breakage.

My reasoning is thus:

With a concentrated force it is easier to break the parrying weapon than with a force spread out over a relatively large area. That would validate the rule that the effective weight of a shield bash, when it comes to the chance of weapon breakage due to parrying, is higher than that of a Shield Rush.

That you have successfully parried the attack is not quite the point of discussion here.


Oh and BTW:

Originally Posted by Hellboy

(...)
Pyramid 77 only seems to help for those with ST higher than 10.
(...)

You did notice the theme of that article, Combat Writ Large, didn't you?

[Imion]

Originally Posted by Hellboy

(...)
This might seem extreme but....what if we count slams as.weighing 10 x basic instead of 0.5? A 130 pound attack for a ST 8 person throwing their whole weight into a slam/pounce/shield rush seems right.

This would mean that practically every weapon would have to roll against breakage when parrying a weak man that comes rushing. I'd call that shenanigans.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Imion

AFAIK the question was about the 'effective weight' of an attack for the purposes of parrying. Specifically when and if you have to roll against breakage.

My reasoning is thus:

With a concentrated force it is easier to break the parrying weapon than with a force spread out over a relatively large area. That would validate the rule that the effective weight of a shield bash, when it comes to the chance of weapon breakage due to parrying, is higher than that of a Shield Rush.

That you have successfully parried the attack is not quite the point of discussion here.

To be honest I think they are pretty linked, (but see my earlier posts about my opinion on the difference and weapon breakage in general). Either way even if we just look at effective weight I'm not sure it's going to be higher in a shield bash than it is in a shield rush

[GodBeastX]

I think my issue with parrying heavy things is that I feel parries should fail before a sword does. You have a SM+4 giant punching you with 80 ST for roughly 9d of damage.

This is, in GURPS terms, the same impact as a small car going ~40 mph. If you can't parry a car smashing into you, why would you be able to parry a fist like that? Perhaps your weapon won't break, but at what point does the fact you don't have the strength to stop or deflect an attack come into play where you just collapse, even if the weapon doesn't break?

[SimonAce]

In history human beings have killed bears with small caliber handguns and knives so I'd suggest yes, a three foot sharpened piece of metal can parry a bear claw

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by GodBeastX

I think my issue with parrying heavy things is that I feel parries should fail before a sword does. You have a SM+4 giant punching you with 80 ST for roughly 9d of damage.

This is, in GURPS terms, the same impact as a small car going ~40 mph. If you can't parry a car smashing into you, why would you be able to parry a fist like that? Perhaps your weapon won't break, but at what point does the fact you don't have the strength to stop or deflect an attack come into play where you just collapse, even if the weapon doesn't break?

yep, your grip is weaker than your weapon* and yeah while parrying is about deflection of energy there is only so far that goes. Though more skill should help compensate for this so I like "making skill count" in the broken blade.


*ok barring very specific combinations of force type, weapon material and direction

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by GodBeastX

I think my issue with parrying heavy things is that I feel parries should fail before a sword does. You have a SM+4 giant punching you with 80 ST for roughly 9d of damage.

This is, in GURPS terms, the same impact as a small car going ~40 mph. If you can't parry a car smashing into you, why would you be able to parry a fist like that? Perhaps your weapon won't break, but at what point does the fact you don't have the strength to stop or deflect an attack come into play where you just collapse, even if the weapon doesn't break?

The second paragraph doesn't go with the first, frankly.

There is a well-known, entirely hashed out point that large creatures unarmed strikes are by default modeled as ridiculously light. The published version of the solution (which existed on the forums sooner) was referenced back on page 2 and 3.

Whether or not your sword fails is a different problem. There's also been new rules that might address that one, but I don't think I've read them so I can't speak to how or how well.

[sir_pudding]

FWIW, weapons (even well made ones) can and do break when parrying (even in sparring and stage combat). I have personally seen it happen three times. This "your grip is the weak part of the system and will always break first" idea doesn't really match reality, presumably because the forces involved aren't all equivalent.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

FWIW, weapons (even well made ones) can and do break when parrying (even in sparring and stage combat). I have personally seen it happen three times. This "your grip is the weak part of the system and will always break first" idea doesn't really match reality, presumably because the forces involved aren't all equivalent.

I've seen weapons break (I have souvenirs of it in fact) but IME having your weapon taken out of your grip happens far more than having it broken.

In fact most weapon breaks I've seen has actually been slim thrusting blades bent back beyond their material tolerance for force applied in that direction*, and not when being hit by other weapons. As I said a specific combination of forces and direction make it more likely to happen, and as you say not always that equivalent to the ones that risk grips

So you've seen it happen three time, but how many times have you seen someone lose their grip on their weapon after it being in contact with someone else's?

The point being that under the current rules you don't risk losing your grip unless it's a specifically disarm / knock away attempt or you parry something your BL or greater in weight, but you risk your weapon breaking in a wider range of situations including those with lighter weapons and attacks.

So I'm not saying no weapon ever got broken in combat, I'm saying it's not more likely than having them knocked out you hand.

That said "the Broken blade" adjust the chance of breakage, and "KYoS" adjusts how heavy some attacks are.



*similarly spears, lances and pole arms getting bent back when a lot of force is applied to the tips, when being set to received charges or when charging.

[GodBeastX]

Originally Posted by GodBeastX

I think my issue with parrying heavy things is that I feel parries should fail before a sword does. You have a SM+4 giant punching you with 80 ST for roughly 9d of damage.

This is, in GURPS terms, the same impact as a small car going ~40 mph. If you can't parry a car smashing into you, why would you be able to parry a fist like that? Perhaps your weapon won't break, but at what point does the fact you don't have the strength to stop or deflect an attack come into play where you just collapse, even if the weapon doesn't break?

Quoting myself here because Pyramid #77 talks about this in "Combat Writ Large". I just found it. Very good read on the subject.