IQ attribute increase and talent/spell

[platimus]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

I don't think his issue is with starting characters and the expenditure of IQ during that initial development phase, but rather the design imbalance that results from divesting the aquisition of talents/spells from IQ afterwards and the gap during which the purchase of IQ using XP is more economical than purchasing talents or spells directly.

Yes, that is what he said. That is what I answered.

[larsdangly]

I also have no problem with any of the features of the new XP system discussed above. Yes, you should spend XP on stats for the first 1000 XP or so (possibly starting to charge up a wizard's staff near the end of this early period), after which you should mostly ignore stats and focus on a balanced mix of gaining talents, learning spells, building your staff if you have one, and keeping a minor wish in your back pocket. And, all character types will at least consider starting with IQ in the range 10+ because it will let them start play with at least one very useful talent or spell, whereas it might take a half dozen sessions of play to gain it after play starts. They will make this decision recognizing that those 2-3 points they sacrificed from ST and DX might get them killed over the course of the first few adventures. As far as I can tell, we all agree that this is how the game now works. And I love it; it's much better than the way things worked before - and I say that as one of the world's most committed TFT fan boys.

[platimus]

A Tale of Two Smurfs

Meet Brainy Smurf (ST8 DX8 IQ16) and Brawny Smurf (ST14 DX10 IQ8), two smurfs from Smurf Village. When they left Smurf Village, Brainy Smurf knew 16 points of talents and spells while Brawny Smurf only knew 8 points of talents and spells. Before leaving the village both smurfs said their farewells and wished each other good luck.
============
Brawny Smurf: Good luck in your endeavors, Brainy.
Brainy Smurf: Same to you, Brawny, I'd feel more confident if I had your strength though.
Brawny Smurf: That's why they call me Brawny. I'd feel better if I knew all the things you know.
Brainy Smurf: That's why they call me Brainy!
============
After a year of seeking fame and fortune abroad, both smurfs returned to Smurf Village for the annual Smurf Reunion. During their travels, both smurfs acquired 400XP.
============
Brainy Smurf: Well, hello there, Brawny! What have you been up to since we last spoke?
Brawny Smurf: I increased all of my attributes by one point. And you?
Brainy Smurf: I increased my ST by 2 points and my DX by 1 point.
Brawny Smurf: Did you learn any new talents or spells?
Brainy Smurf: Unfortunately, no, I did not.
Brawny Smurf: Me neither.
============

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by platimus

After a year of seeking fame and fortune abroad, both smurfs returned to Smurf Village for the annual Smurf Reunion. During their travels, both smurfs acquired 400XP.

Only 400 XP after a year of adventuring? Now that's depressing.

[platimus]

A Tale of Two Smurfs (continued)

After another year of adventures, both smurfs gained 500XP before seeing each other at the next reunion...
============
Brawny Smurf: (ST15 DX11 IQ9): Hey, Brainy. Whatcha been up to?
Brainy Smurf: (ST10 DX10 IQ16): I increased my DX by 1 point! And you?
Brawny Smurf: I learned a new talent. "How to use a hammer".
Brainy Smurf: Oh, how fitting!
Brawny Smurf: I guess I'll never know as much as you do, Brainy.
Brainy Smurf: Ha ha ha. Of course not! That's why they call me Brainy Smurf, silly!
Brawny Smurf: I learn another song beside the smurf song though. It's called "Hammer Time!"

What followed Brawny's last comment is too graphic to depict here. One of the smurfs died while the other was forbidden by Papa Smurf from ever returning to Smurf Village.

[Skarg]

I'm not trying to convince everyone who thinks otherwise, but it is curious to me that the issues don't seem clear and problematic to everyone.

Here's are two examples and then I'll probably give up:


Example 1:

Pudork the typical peasant arrives at legion and reports for inspection and training.
ST 11 DX 10 IQ 8
Farming, Swimming, Animal Handling, Pole Weapons

He can be spear-fodder as is, but we want to train him to be a good soldier. We'd like to at least train him to use a shield.

RAW, that takes 500 XP.

Or, RAW, with that much XP, we could have him use the spear 2-handed, so he doesn't have use for a shield, and put 500 XP into ST & DX, which would but us FIVE ATTRIBUTE POINTS. i.e. it's enough to make him:

ST 13 DX 13 IQ 8, ready to slaughter typical 30-32-point characters. Or, for the same amount of XP, gain the shield talent and not really be any better than he was before.


Example 2:

Three 32-point starting wizards:

Horace
ST 9 DX 13 IQ 10
Staff, Fire, Shadow, Image, Wall, and 5 other points in spells & talents.

Boris
ST 9 DX 12 IQ 11
Staff II, 3-hex Fire, 3-hex Shadow, Image, Wall, and 6 other points in spells & talents.

Norris
ST 8 DX 11 IQ 13
Staff III, 3-hex Fire, 3-hex Shadow, 4-hex Image, 3-hex Wall, and 8 other points in spells & talents.

So far, no problem or difference from original TFT.

For these characters to advance 3 attribute points, it would cost 100 + 100 + 200 = 400 XP. They might then all be ST 9 DX 13 IQ 13.

But they won't be equal by a long shot. Norris will have 13 points in spells and they could most/all be spells Horace and Boris could not have taken as starting spells. If Horace and Boris want the spells Norris has, they need to spend 500 XP for each new spell and new version of the spell. So to catch up to anything half-like Boris' starting knowledge:

Horace would need to get Staff II, Staff III, 3-hex Fire, 3-hex Shadow, 4-hex Image, and 3-hex Wall, which would cost 3000 XP.

Boris would need to get Staff III, 4-hex Image, and 3-hex Wall, for 1500 XP.

Meanwhile, Norris caught up to their starting advantages at the same rate they could have bought up to his IQ and gotten almost nothing for it except the ability to Disbelieve and notice traps as well as Norris already could. If everyone gets more XP and learns spells, Norris remains ahead of them by 1500 to 3000 XP, plus the advantage of having started with higher-IQ spells in the first place.

By the time Horace could learn those six spell levels for 3000 XP, Norris could gain another 3 attributes (making him a 38-point character!) AND learn another two spells, and have 100 XP left over. Or gain 3 attributes and 5 staff mana plus 100 XP.

Also, in what self-consistent universe does it make sense that Norris is supposedly on par with Horace and Boris, but was able to learn all those spells before play started, but now it's going to take massively more effort for them to catch up to where he started?

How would you represent a young Norris learning the spells that got him to his starting spell list?

How would you represent NPCs trying to learn new spells?

Why is the average person 30 points, and somehow learned talents at some point, but then talents became something that needs as much experience as becoming an exceptional person in terms of attributes?

[larsdangly]

Why in your example did 'brawny' smurf not buy more stat points the first year? It is hard to make a point with an example like this if the 'chump' in the example is just being forced to not get better, for no obvious reason. He could have IQ 11 at the end of his first year if he wanted it.

Also, 'Brainy' would probably be dead when the two met up a year later...

[platimus]

Originally Posted by Skarg

I'm not trying to convince everyone who thinks otherwise, but it is curious to me that the issues don't seem clear and problematic to everyone.

Here's are two examples and then I'll probably give up:


Example 1:

Pudork the typical peasant arrives at legion and reports for inspection and training.
ST 11 DX 10 IQ 8
Farming, Swimming, Animal Handling, Pole Weapons

He can be spear-fodder as is, but we want to train him to be a good soldier. We'd like to at least train him to use a shield.

RAW, that takes 500 XP.

Or, RAW, with that much XP, we could have him use the spear 2-handed, so he doesn't have use for a shield, and put 500 XP into ST & DX, which would but us FIVE ATTRIBUTE POINTS. i.e. it's enough to make him:

ST 13 DX 13 IQ 8, ready to slaughter typical 30-32-point characters. Or, for the same amount of XP, gain the shield talent and not really be any better than he was before.

Maybe I have a different copy of the rules but 500XP will only give you 3 points of attributes: 33rd - 100XP, 34th - 100XP, 35th - 200XP = 400XP. 36th - 300XP.

As far as not being any better than he was before, that's very subjective but begs the question: Why did you want to train him in Shield usage to begin with? Did the drill sergeant have a quota to meet?

But they won't be equal by a long shot

Also, in what self-consistent universe does it make sense that Norris is supposedly on par with Horace and Boris, but was able to learn all those spells before play started, but now it's going to take massively more effort for them to catch up to where he started?

Sounds kinda like our universe to me. And I consider our universe to be the most realistic to date.

How would you represent a young Norris learning the spells that got him to his starting spell list?

Norris was smarter. He picked up his lessons faster than his brothers so his daddy was able to teach him more of his wizardly ways.

How would you represent NPCs trying to learn new spells?

Is this a trick question?

Why is the average person 30 points, and somehow learned talents at some point, but then talents became something that needs as much experience as becoming an exceptional person in terms of attributes?

How do those darn wizards work their magic? LOL

[hcobb]

Norris only has 6 more skill points, but he does strike at DX 11 +3 so kills the other wizards first.

Here's a better starting wizard

Blitzen ST 8 DX 10 IQ 14
Staff III 1d/(1 fatigue, 1d, +3 DX, ignores armor)
Lightning, Missile Weapons III, Staff III plus 4 more skill points

Starts each duel with a 3d lightning bolt at DX 13 to blow up the other guy's staff.

[platimus]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

Why in your example did 'brawny' smurf not buy more stat points the first year? It is hard to make a point with an example like this if the 'chump' in the example is just being forced to not get better, for no obvious reason. He could have IQ 11 at the end of his first year if he wanted it.

I think you misread something. Brawny increased all of his attributes by 1 point. Perhaps I made a typo somewhere...

EDIT
I see your point though. It would have been better from a min/max standpoint for Brawny to spend all that XP in IQ...or would it? Considering Brawny didn't live on his wits but his brawn, I think he made the right choice.

Also, 'Brainy' would probably be dead when the two met up a year later...

I agree.