[Basic] So The Hulk Gets Bitten By a Werewolf Or The Multiple Alternate Form Problem

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Anthony

The key question is whether the Hulk turns into a normal werewolf, or if he turns into a big green gamma-powered werewolf.

In the case of a normal werewolf, that's just a standard use of alternate form. If he turns into a big green gamma-powered werewolf, that means at least one of his abilities isn't alternate form, because racial templates don't stack.

This Does Not Follow. Just because the werewolf shape uses a rather unique racial template doesn't somehow make it not a racial template. :) That's not stacking racial templates, that's just "My radioactive werewolf template happens to include everything from the Gamma Ray Mutant template and the Werewolf template"

[simply Nathan]

If the werewolf and gamma hulk forms can both trigger at once, then pay full price for "Gamma Werewolf" and [15] each for the other two. Simple.

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by Anthony

In the case of a normal werewolf, that's just a standard use of alternate form. If he turns into a big green gamma-powered werewolf, that means at least one of his abilities isn't alternate form, because racial templates don't stack.

Besides agreeing with what Bruno just said, I'll also argue against the idea that Racial Templates don't stack. It's certainly true that the default for Alternate Form is to replace one Racial Template with another, but that need not be an absolute truth. Outside of Alternate Form, if you are a Giant and become a Vampire you most likely gain all the traits of both the Giant and the Vampire Racial Templates. Dealing specifically with Alternate Form, if you are a Pixie you might very well turn into a pixie sized werewolf, in which case you would need to create a new "pixie sized werewolf" racial template which includes traits from both the pixie and werewolf templates in the same way that you might have to create a new "Gamma Ray Mutant Hulk Werewolf" template if the Hulk can turn into a HulkWolf.

Of course, in my mind, in the situation of a HulkWolf, you would really need three Alternate Forms - a AF (Werewolf), AF (The Hulk), and AF (HulkWolf). I would even allow AF (Werewolf) to take the "Magic" Power Modifier, AF (The Hulk) to take the Super Power Modifier, and AF (HulkWolf) to take both Power Modifiers, since loss of either power source would make him unable to turn into the HulkWolf.

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by simply Nathan

If the werewolf and gamma hulk forms can both trigger at once, then pay full price for "Gamma Werewolf" and [15] each for the other two. Simple.

Alternate Forms should never have an AF built into the Racial Template. The base form should pay the cost of all Alternate Forms, which means that a "double form/half-way form" is really just one more Alternate Form that the base character has to buy.

[Bruno]

I caution against thinking of them as "stacking". It's more an opportunity for the GM to go through and merge the templates - most aren't written with an eye to being randomly applied to things, and there may be conflicting traits that the GM will have to sort out.

That said, there usually isn't THAT much that conflicts severely; you do have to watch for mental disadvantages, and morphology traits. If one template has things that modify your number of arms, and the other template assumes you're a quadruped with no arms, you might have a warning sign that you really shouldn't mix these :D

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by Bruno

I caution against thinking of them as "stacking".

I can agree with that; it's more of a "combining, with an eye towards fixing incompatibilities, in order to create a new Racial Template."

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by ericbsmith

Besides agreeing with what Bruno just said, I'll also argue against the idea that Racial Templates don't stack.

You only have one racial template at a time, and alternate form replaces it completely. You can't go "I have racial template A, and racial template B, and I'll use alternate form to swap out racial template A".

Incidentally, I would probably not use Alternate Form for either ability. It's really not necessary, they're both just advantage packages with Temporary Disadvantage, and two things like that stack just fine.

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Incidentally, I would probably not use Alternate Form for either ability. It's really not necessary, they're both just advantage packages with Temporary Disadvantage, and two things like that stack just fine.

Huh? Both The Hulk and a Werewolf are classic instances of exactly what Alternate Form was designed to address. If you're not going to use Alternate Form for designing those kinds of characters then you really are just deciding not to use Alternate Form at all.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by ericbsmith

Huh? Both The Hulk and a Werewolf are classic instances of exactly what Alternate Form was designed to address.

Alternate Form is for racial packages. The Hulk is not a racial package, and Werewolf is quite questionable.

Originally Posted by ericbsmith

If you're not going to use Alternate Form for designing those kinds of characters then you really are just deciding not to use Alternate Form at all.

Yeah, pretty much.

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Alternate Form is for racial packages. The Hulk is not a racial package, and Werewolf is quite questionable.

Racial Templates are any package template that the GM designs or approves of and wants to call a Racial Template. This is clearly stated in the Basic Set Campaigns under Racial Templates on p. 450. It does not need to be a template for a "Race" per se, and can explicitly be a template for such things as Vampires, Golems, Robots, or even Sentient Computer Programs.

What I will admit is less clear is that the Racial Templates as described under Alternate Form seem to be talking about a rigid Template for a "Race," when in fact they are not meant to be. The Iconic Character C31R07 clearly shows that a "Racial Template" in the context of AF can be two Robot forms, and I see nothing that suggests that you should build Robots and Golems as Racial Templates but you cannot do the same with a Werewolf or The Hulk. This is discussed in GURPS Supers and GURPS Powers in far more detail, and those books specifically mention Transforming Superheros and Werewolves, among other things, as valid uses for Alternate Form.

Originally Posted by Anthony

Yeah, pretty much.

Then you're playing by house rules.