Using street children in ceremonial magic [Magic/Thaumatology] - Page 5

Plane · 12-04-2020, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

In the rules as written magic is always high stress by intent

Maybe we could apply T32's "truly fearsome magic" suggestion of requiring a fright check any time a spell is cast?

A penalty equal to half (rounded down) the prereq count is used, but to make it truly brutal it could be equal to an unhalved prereq count :) Maybe a +1 to resist those new 'average' spells?

You might then allow TDMs but they could be offset by something like the MoF to the fright rolls?

It never clarifies if you make the fright check prior to or after the spell roll. If it happens before/during casting then failure (stun) could prevent actually succeeding in the spell (interrupted concentration: can't take more concentrate maneuvers if you are stunned!) which sounds boring...

That's why I'm thinking maybe failing it shouldn't guarantee interrupting spellcasting, but instead cause a penalty where it might fail (or even critfail) and the stun could take place AFTER that.

AlexanderHowl · 12-04-2020, 01:35 PM

In settings where you have skill-based magic that is fueled by FP, magic should have some impact on the society.

For example, let us say that a mage in a low mana area decides to invest in Youth-20. With the help of 100 assistants, they are now capable of offering eternal youth to anyone who can pay the price. If we assume that the mage wants $100,000/month and the assistants want $5,000/month, they must generate a minimum of $6 million/month (we will increase it to $9.6 million per month to account for other costs). Since they are capable of casting the spell four times per hour, six hours a day, twenty days a month, they can charge $20,000 per casting. Anyone Status 3+ will likely be capable of coming up with that much money every year.

Rolando · 12-04-2020, 02:07 PM

you don't allow Youth or other life extending magics without developing it into the setting.

Still, any magic will affect the setting, how much is something else.

AlexanderHowl · 12-04-2020, 02:46 PM

It is an available spell in Magic and, unlike Resurrection, it is cheap enough to be done with 1 mage and 100 mundane assistants. Conversely, Resurrection requires a minimum of 5 mage with the spell at 15+, each with a 20+ point powerstone, and 100 mundane assistants, yet half of the settings have Resurrection available at a drop of a hat while Youth is a secret or rare spell. From an economic standpoint, Youth should be much cheaper and much more available than Resurrection, especially since it is much easier for a skill practitioner to cast it in the safety of a low mana area (finding one mage with a spell at 20+ should be a heck of a lot easier than finding five with the same spell at 20+).

Rolando · 12-05-2020, 01:11 AM

as available as computer programming skill is in Basic, still, I don't allow my players to get computer programming in my Yrt campaign, nor the Youth spell... unless the character have a relevant background and even then I consider the ramifications of the introduction of skills, advantages and spells that will drastically change the setting.

Plane · 12-05-2020, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rolando

as available as computer programming skill is in Basic, still, I don't allow my players to get computer programming in my Yrt campaign, nor the Youth spell... unless the character have a relevant background and even then I consider the ramifications of the introduction of skills, advantages and spells that will drastically change the setting.

Oddly enough it probably wouldn't change the setting much unless you could somehow build a computer :)

Checking B184 it just occurred to me, for TL skills like this it'd probably be good to note under the skill itself the minimum TL required to have it, which I assume is TL8, or perhaps TL7 for the more basic forms?

AlexanderHowl · 12-05-2020, 10:25 AM

Computer Programming would be useless below TL7 and would have limited utility below TL8. In fact, it might become quite rare at TL9, as there are already suites of computer programs that allow people to design new programs through Computer Operations rather than Computer Programming (push button video game design or web page design). By TL10, Computer Programming may be an extinct skill among humans, as they could just order their computer to build an appropriate program, and as the sheer ocean of available computer programs will likely satisfy 99.99% of human desires and/or needs.

Rolando · 12-05-2020, 02:42 PM

What I mean is those are setting details and the GM address them transparently most of the time.

You don't allow high TL skills even if they are in the book, or high TL equipment, those are also in the Basic book, unless you want that equipment in the setting, so you make all the considerations needed. There are a lot of spells, skills, advantages and disadvantages I as a GM disallow in Banestorm for example, but not as many in other fantasy settings (home made); and many more in my Mecha campaign... the Youth spell, for example, I don't allow it except in some specific cases and never is a widespread known spell. There are others of course.

Black Leviathan · 12-06-2020, 12:35 AM

I like where you're going with that but I think Children are the wrong direction. I've known a lot of younger people who are dependable and responsible but I fully acknowledge they are the exception not the rule. I wouldn't depend on them for any serious industry, much less a project with a deadline and serious consequences for failure. Children are prone to childishness. They don't fully understand the stakes of an endeavor and often act carelessly. The situation doesn't improve in a few years when hormones start dictating their decisions. Street kids add a level of danger because they might be tangled up in anything, they might rob my shop. They might tank the ritual for one of my competitors. I really think as a mage I wouldn't involve any non-adult in my rituals. I'd lie and say that it's just how the magic works, too dangerous.

I absolutely like the idea of handicapped people. Any adult able to perform the ritual. Gives them a sound income and respectability. I'd also tap single mothers, widows or otherwise. I'd feel good about making magic that helped out people in need and I'd feel like those people can perform mind numbing ritual work dependably for the meager wages Enchantment work can provide.

AlexanderHowl · 12-06-2020, 12:59 AM

I think that pre-contemporary children were likely more reliable than contemporary children. During the Industrial Age, factories hired children because they were cheap and reliable workers, so much so that it took government legislation to prevent them from hiring children. What we now call childhood was a time of education and leisure once reserved for the children of elites, every other child learned how to do some work by the time that they were five years old, even if it was just retrieving eggs from the chicken coop.

If street children could earn a decent wage through participating in ceremonial mage, they would likely do so because they would be expected to help their parents. Alternatively, as suggested previously, they could be exchanging their labor in an educational setting in exchange for room and board, tuition and fees, books and uniforms, and a small allowance (though they would likely only work four hours a day rather than eight hours a day). Any Status-1 family would jump at such an opportunity, as they would not have to pay to take care of their child, and many Status 0 families would send their second or third sons and daughters, as they would have nothing better to do.

In that case, the academies would likely be found in low mana areas, in order to avoid the consequences of critical failures, and the students would be divided into two groups (A and B), each with a minimum of 100 students. They would spend an hour in ceremonial magic, then an hour in class, and would repeat the cycle four times per day. They would alternate cycles every day and would have the weekend off for religious services, remedial studies, recreation, and relaxation. They would likely be used in ceremonial spells that do not target people, such as the previous example of the Cold spell, allowing them to generate the revenue that would fund their school.

12-04-2020, 01:35 PM	#42
AlexanderHowl Join Date: Feb 2016	Re: Using street children in ceremonial magic [Magic/Thaumatology] In settings where you have skill-based magic that is fueled by FP, magic should have some impact on the society. For example, let us say that a mage in a low mana area decides to invest in Youth-20. With the help of 100 assistants, they are now capable of offering eternal youth to anyone who can pay the price. If we assume that the mage wants $100,000/month and the assistants want $5,000/month, they must generate a minimum of $6 million/month (we will increase it to $9.6 million per month to account for other costs). Since they are capable of casting the spell four times per hour, six hours a day, twenty days a month, they can charge $20,000 per casting. Anyone Status 3+ will likely be capable of coming up with that much money every year.

12-04-2020, 02:07 PM	#43
Rolando MIB Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Panama	Re: Using street children in ceremonial magic [Magic/Thaumatology] you don't allow Youth or other life extending magics without developing it into the setting. Still, any magic will affect the setting, how much is something else.

12-04-2020, 02:46 PM	#44
AlexanderHowl Join Date: Feb 2016	Re: Using street children in ceremonial magic [Magic/Thaumatology] It is an available spell in Magic and, unlike Resurrection, it is cheap enough to be done with 1 mage and 100 mundane assistants. Conversely, Resurrection requires a minimum of 5 mage with the spell at 15+, each with a 20+ point powerstone, and 100 mundane assistants, yet half of the settings have Resurrection available at a drop of a hat while Youth is a secret or rare spell. From an economic standpoint, Youth should be much cheaper and much more available than Resurrection, especially since it is much easier for a skill practitioner to cast it in the safety of a low mana area (finding one mage with a spell at 20+ should be a heck of a lot easier than finding five with the same spell at 20+).

12-05-2020, 01:11 AM	#45
Rolando MIB Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Panama	Re: Using street children in ceremonial magic [Magic/Thaumatology] as available as computer programming skill is in Basic, still, I don't allow my players to get computer programming in my Yrt campaign, nor the Youth spell... unless the character have a relevant background and even then I consider the ramifications of the introduction of skills, advantages and spells that will drastically change the setting.

12-05-2020, 10:25 AM	#47
AlexanderHowl Join Date: Feb 2016	Re: Using street children in ceremonial magic [Magic/Thaumatology] Computer Programming would be useless below TL7 and would have limited utility below TL8. In fact, it might become quite rare at TL9, as there are already suites of computer programs that allow people to design new programs through Computer Operations rather than Computer Programming (push button video game design or web page design). By TL10, Computer Programming may be an extinct skill among humans, as they could just order their computer to build an appropriate program, and as the sheer ocean of available computer programs will likely satisfy 99.99% of human desires and/or needs.

12-05-2020, 02:42 PM	#48
Rolando MIB Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Panama	Re: Using street children in ceremonial magic [Magic/Thaumatology] What I mean is those are setting details and the GM address them transparently most of the time. You don't allow high TL skills even if they are in the book, or high TL equipment, those are also in the Basic book, unless you want that equipment in the setting, so you make all the considerations needed. There are a lot of spells, skills, advantages and disadvantages I as a GM disallow in Banestorm for example, but not as many in other fantasy settings (home made); and many more in my Mecha campaign... the Youth spell, for example, I don't allow it except in some specific cases and never is a widespread known spell. There are others of course.

12-06-2020, 12:35 AM	#49
Black Leviathan Join Date: Sep 2018	Re: Using street children in ceremonial magic [Magic/Thaumatology] I like where you're going with that but I think Children are the wrong direction. I've known a lot of younger people who are dependable and responsible but I fully acknowledge they are the exception not the rule. I wouldn't depend on them for any serious industry, much less a project with a deadline and serious consequences for failure. Children are prone to childishness. They don't fully understand the stakes of an endeavor and often act carelessly. The situation doesn't improve in a few years when hormones start dictating their decisions. Street kids add a level of danger because they might be tangled up in anything, they might rob my shop. They might tank the ritual for one of my competitors. I really think as a mage I wouldn't involve any non-adult in my rituals. I'd lie and say that it's just how the magic works, too dangerous. I absolutely like the idea of handicapped people. Any adult able to perform the ritual. Gives them a sound income and respectability. I'd also tap single mothers, widows or otherwise. I'd feel good about making magic that helped out people in need and I'd feel like those people can perform mind numbing ritual work dependably for the meager wages Enchantment work can provide.

12-06-2020, 12:59 AM	#50
AlexanderHowl Join Date: Feb 2016	Re: Using street children in ceremonial magic [Magic/Thaumatology] I think that pre-contemporary children were likely more reliable than contemporary children. During the Industrial Age, factories hired children because they were cheap and reliable workers, so much so that it took government legislation to prevent them from hiring children. What we now call childhood was a time of education and leisure once reserved for the children of elites, every other child learned how to do some work by the time that they were five years old, even if it was just retrieving eggs from the chicken coop. If street children could earn a decent wage through participating in ceremonial mage, they would likely do so because they would be expected to help their parents. Alternatively, as suggested previously, they could be exchanging their labor in an educational setting in exchange for room and board, tuition and fees, books and uniforms, and a small allowance (though they would likely only work four hours a day rather than eight hours a day). Any Status-1 family would jump at such an opportunity, as they would not have to pay to take care of their child, and many Status 0 families would send their second or third sons and daughters, as they would have nothing better to do. In that case, the academies would likely be found in low mana areas, in order to avoid the consequences of critical failures, and the students would be divided into two groups (A and B), each with a minimum of 100 students. They would spend an hour in ceremonial magic, then an hour in class, and would repeat the cycle four times per day. They would alternate cycles every day and would have the weekend off for religious services, remedial studies, recreation, and relaxation. They would likely be used in ceremonial spells that do not target people, such as the previous example of the Cold spell, allowing them to generate the revenue that would fund their school.