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Old 05-30-2019, 08:03 AM   #181
ericthered
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
I'm evaluating again but this time I'll step forward, distance narrowed from 6 to 5.
That's your first evaluate. You made a ready maneuver last round.

Red evaluates to +3, and steps closer. The distance is now 4 yards.
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Old 06-04-2019, 12:04 AM   #182
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

Oh wow, I was sort of out of it... I shouldn't have made a HT check last round for having done a ready, so I guess I'll forgo the HT check I earned from my first evaluate this round and just consider what I already rolled to be this one's.

I guess I'll do an Aim maneuver then. I don't think shoes have an Acc so this gives me +0 unless you're willing to let me try out all of Douglas Cole's "On Target" rules from Pyramid 3/77 to make Aiming more interesting.

Using the free step from the aim I can widen gap 4>5 again. Probably going to do that until I can max my aim bonus, unless you want to attack with more than a step.
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Old 06-04-2019, 01:16 PM   #183
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

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I guess I'll do an Aim maneuver then. I don't think shoes have an Acc so this gives me +0 unless you're willing to let me try out all of Douglas Cole's "On Target" rules from Pyramid 3/77 to make Aiming more interesting.
Lets go ahead and use those rules.

I can't remember where your other shoe is. Are you wearing one and holding one, holding two, or something else?

Red will all out defend and step forward.
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Old 06-06-2019, 08:21 PM   #184
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

I had removed both, and didn't mention dropping either... If I had kept the first removed shoe in my hand after pulling it off that might arguably have slowed down the removal speed of the other shoe (you'd pull the 2 strings of a knot loose in sequence instead of simultaneously) however it might be assumed that I had just tucked the 1st shoe under my left armpit?

Armpit tuck carries aren't something I can think of how to represent, maybe I should've done that as a "Pass Limb"?

Given that it takes 3 seconds to don a pair of shoes, 1.5 seconds to remove a pair, I had spend 2 readies to remove them so would it seem fair to account for that "holster my shoe in my left armpit" as being that extra 0.5 seconds I wasted by rounding up?)

I did that despite "round down for character feats", so if I had gone by B9 nd rounded down 1.5 to 1 second, I would'e been able to use that following turn to do whatever maneuver might represent that (Ready? Grapple? Pass Limb?)

Your step forward narrows the span from 5 to 4

So I'm going to whip some (but not all) of the optional rules here (pg 28) including "Low-Tech Weapons" (muscle powered means it applies to throwing) and "Wobbly Aim" (if I fail, it would be worse than not aiming),

I prefer "Variable Accuracy" to "Fixed Accuracy", but dislike "All 3d, All the Time" (because it means NEVER any bonuses for Acc 0 weapons) and also "Crappy Guns" (no min 1 if Acc 0) because if you pass the aiming roll there should be a benefit.

That said: I don't quite understand why making a 2nd roll instead of perhaps just making the bonus you get for aiming resembling the margin of success in the aiming roll.

In this case I would roll DX-based Throwing not DX-based Guns...

DX is 11 (12 minus 1) so DX-3 means the default skill is skill 8.

"Aim Small Miss Small" means I get only half the speed/range penalties, rounded to nearest whole. You being 4 yards away moving 1 yard/second means you're 5 yards on speed/range for -3, halved that is -1.5, not sure whether to round to -1 or to -2 though. Why would you write "nearest" when halving? Halved odd numbers always have 2 equidistant numbers...

Y'know, because of how brutal that is (and I can't even do "Telegraphic Aim" to get that sweet +4... unless we house rule that as giving people +2 to perceive your aim?) I think maybe I'll just round that down... so I have to roll against a 7...

I roll an 11, it's a failure...

(actually On Target is pretty harsh for low-skill guys... I'm really liking this "Telegraphic Aim" idea for a basic +4)
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Old 06-07-2019, 08:49 AM   #185
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

A telegraphic aim should probably give a bonus to the dodge. If you don't use that bonus, you don't use that dodge.

Have we decided what damage the shoe would do to red if it hits?

All out defense (dodge), stepping closer.
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Old 06-08-2019, 07:13 PM   #186
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

Just to recap:
June 4 I aimed and stepped back, you AOD'd forward, then I went and rolled the result of that aim and also established the distance after our maneuvers (4 to 5 then back to 4)

Since you had already declared that maneuver I should've declared my next but I forgot to, so it's my turn...

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
A telegraphic aim should probably give a bonus to the dodge. If you don't use that bonus, you don't use that dodge.
Do you mean like rolling a dodge against an Aim itself (rather than a possible future attack) to intentionally spoil its bonus buildup?

If so it opens to an interesting "Deceptive Aim" where you try to conceal that you're aiming (or at least who you are aiming at) to give penalties to perceive or dodge that aim.

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Have we decided what damage the shoe would do to red if it hits?
I figured I would just go by weight

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
All out defense (dodge), stepping closer.
Realizing that "On Target" rules actually make normal aiming a bad investment for low-skill fellows, this time I'm going to try a Committed aim (get a +2)

I can't seem to load https://dicelog.com/joinlogdice at the moment... will check back at it later, if it's up for you you can roll for me though, same as last but a +2 :)
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Old 06-10-2019, 06:52 AM   #187
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

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Do you mean like rolling a dodge against an Aim itself (rather than a possible future attack) to intentionally spoil its bonus buildup?
No. I mean that when you're aiming that obviously its easy to see what you're doing and when you're throwing.

Quote:
I figured I would just go by weight
huh, the table doesn't take density or hardness into consideration. I can inflict thr-2 with a pillow. It also doesn't have a minimum weight, so I can inflict thr-2 with a disposable spoon...

Quote:
I can't seem to load https://dicelog.com/joinlogdice at the moment... will check back at it later, if it's up for you you can roll for me though, same as last but a +2 :)
It was up for me when I checked... though I didn't roll.
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Old 06-11-2019, 03:18 PM   #188
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

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No. I mean that when you're aiming that obviously its easy to see what you're doing and when you're throwing.
Aiming is sort of a prep, you can still make last-minute adjustments and I think a telegraphic dodge bonus only makes sense when opposing an immediate roll.

That said, with the idea "Aim as an Attack" already present, I think someone should be able to use active defenses against an Aim: success meaning they managed to spoil it (remove all accrued aim bonuses) and maybe get other benefits (like aggressive parry or Grabbing Parry against weapon?)

I know that's normally the realm of attacks, but since there's now ways to do instantaneous Aim+Shoot (as a Rapid-Strike) using his On Target rules, having that be balanced by multiple chances to parry them as distinct attacks would be cool.

That would also help cover the scenario of "I spoil his aim BEFORE he shoots the gun". Presumably if you parry a gun in the normal rules (if they're in reach of your melee weapon) then the bullet still gets fired, but if you allow parrying aim then you can parry before the attacker decides to fire, so they might opt to try not to shoot if their aim is spoiled due to the high chances of missing.

Reason why people would do that (rather than gain the benefit of a foe wasting bullets) is the multiple chances of a parry giving more chances to protect.

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huh, the table doesn't take density or hardness into consideration. I can inflict thr-2 with a pillow. It also doesn't have a minimum weight, so I can inflict thr-2 with a disposable spoon...
Yeah... hm... improvised combat probably does need more rules for this.

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It was up for me when I checked... though I didn't roll.
I just did... even with the +2 bringing my Aim skill from 8 to 10, I got a 14 this time so it's a failure again.

I totally wanna float Telegraphic Attack to Ranged Combat, if floating it directly to the Attack maneuver is too powerful then floating it to Aim seems like the next best thing. A +4 to an aim roll wuoldn't easily result in a +4 bonus, least not in a single second... the main effect would be to be getting ANY bonuses at all some increased probability.

Cole already kinda improved the ranged attack maneuvers (+1 for committed +2 for all-out instead of +1 for all-out) so giving them Telegraphic on top of that would probably be broken...

But y'know, following the example of "if you take the melee maneuver penalties, you get half the bonus to hit" allowing Telegraphic Ranged Attacks where you are +2 to hit in exchange for +2 to your opponent's active defenses (or +1/+1 for "half-telegraph" some fudge)... that seems fair!

Allowing that for Aim as well probably would work too, but only if you allow Aim-Dodging / Aim-Parrying

After the failed aim, will use free step to widen distance from 4 to 5

This whole "I can back up forever until I get some decent aim" challenges realism, which is why I'd like DX rolls to step with penalties when stepping backward (blindness) giving a chance to trip even on level ground, much less uneven.

I would assume all creatures have an inherent "No Nuisance Rolls" allowing them to avoid making DX rolls to take steps outside of combat (everyone should have a crit fail chance to trip in combat though!) so long as their skill is high enough.

Given that you can take Cosmic: No Roll Required on Innate Attack to avoid attacks as nuisance rolls too, some form of that being taken on steps would also make sense. Just not really sure what to base the price on.

C"NRR is of course very different than NRR though because it only requires a minimum skill of 3 to succeed while NRR requires a minimum skill of 16, which is why it's merely a perk. Exempting the NRR restriction against use in combat I think probably should just require another perk for something like stepping which isn't exactly "combat" as "doing a non-combat skill during combat" like if you wanted to use NRR singing to hold a tune while dodging punches.

Your turn!

Last edited by Plane; 06-11-2019 at 03:26 PM.
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Old 06-13-2019, 07:42 AM   #189
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Aiming is sort of a prep, you can still make last-minute adjustments and I think a telegraphic dodge bonus only makes sense when opposing an immediate roll.
I disagree. A telegraphic aim should be obvious and only work for hitting a single location. Making the target dodge on the turn of the aim also somewhat broken as a technique for making the other guy waste AP.

Quote:
That said, with the idea "Aim as an Attack" already present, I think someone should be able to use active defenses against an Aim: success meaning they managed to spoil it (remove all accrued aim bonuses) and maybe get other benefits (like aggressive parry or Grabbing Parry against weapon?)

I know that's normally the realm of attacks, but since there's now ways to do instantaneous Aim+Shoot (as a Rapid-Strike) using his On Target rules, having that be balanced by multiple chances to parry them as distinct attacks would be cool.
Aims as attacks does have potential as a mechanic. Especially interesting would be if you could only dodge aims against guns.

Quote:
This whole "I can back up forever until I get some decent aim" challenges realism, which is why I'd like DX rolls to step with penalties when stepping backward (blindness) giving a chance to trip even on level ground, much less uneven.
The problem is that gurps rounds move 1 up to step 1 (and move 11 up to step 2). Staying out of range as long as we're calmly walking towards each other is just fine, and feels realistic even. The break in realism is that green with the injured leg shouldn't be able to back up calmly as fast as red (even if we say something like each step cycle looses a foot of the yard). A secondary issue is that closing the distance more rapidly costs WAY TOO MUCH ap. Did we ever decide if we were using the 2 AP for full move rules?

I personally favor steps being 20% of move, rounded properly. Yes, that's complete and utter house rule, but I think it handles the lower cases better.

Quote:
I would assume all creatures have an inherent "No Nuisance Rolls" allowing them to avoid making DX rolls to take steps outside of combat (everyone should have a crit fail chance to trip in combat though!) so long as their skill is high enough.

Given that you can take Cosmic: No Roll Required on Innate Attack to avoid attacks as nuisance rolls too, some form of that being taken on steps would also make sense. Just not really sure what to base the price on.
If we're looking for rules on footwork, bad footing rules aren't a bad place to start.

Quote:
Your turn!
[/QUOTE]

I'd like to know if we are using the lower AP costs for movement.
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Old 06-15-2019, 03:59 PM   #190
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

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I disagree. A telegraphic aim should be obvious and only work for hitting a single location. Making the target dodge on the turn of the aim also somewhat broken as a technique for making the other guy waste AP.
Well you don't HAVE to dodge it, but I understand the concern with aiming being a 0 AP maneuver. There probably should be some small cost to it (ie it would be exhausting to constantly hold your gun up pointing it at someone, following them as they move around). The cost relative to recovery events is basically not getting to make a HT roll.

That's part of why I'd just like a baseline recovery, and then things other than Doing Nothing just all having costs, whereas Do Nothing gets 100% of that recovery.

Like maybe if you had a HT+4 baseline, instead of being -4 to your HT roll on doing an Evaluate/Wait you would just pay 0.4 AP, while for other stuff instead of making no HT roll, you'd just pay 0.8 AP.

Quote:
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The problem is that gurps rounds move 1 up to step 1 (and move 11 up to step 2). Staying out of range as long as we're calmly walking towards each other is just fine, and feels realistic even.
Ah, but we're not walking toward each other: you're walking forward toward me, I'm walking backward away from you.

Forward movement I think is more biomechanically efficient, and the fastest calm walk forward someone could do would be faster than the fastest calm walk backward, I think.

Something like 2 MP worth of step (two forward, or one sideways/back) would cover that. Otherwise there's no value in actually turning around to move away from someone until you switch from step to Movement Points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
The break in realism is that green with the injured leg shouldn't be able to back up calmly as fast as red (even if we say something like each step cycle looses a foot of the yard).
An added break, yeah. I could see an injured leg bringing someone's forward movement down to the level of an uninjured person's backward movement. Here there are 2 situations that should slow Green down, or at least make keeping pace with your calm walk more exhausting.

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
A secondary issue is that closing the distance more rapidly costs WAY TOO MUCH ap. Did we ever decide if we were using the 2 AP for full move rules?
Yes, I applied it May 23rd

If we were using ⅒ AP increments, I guess that would work out to 0.2 per 10% of your AP.

If I was doing away with the free step, would even consider reducing that to 0.1 to 10%, so that going full move only cost 1 AP. That or have a mitigation system like MoS*⅒ for running/combat/sports being subtracted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
I personally favor steps being 20% of move, rounded properly. Yes, that's complete and utter house rule, but I think it handles the lower cases better.
It fits the 1 yard step for 5 yard move that average humans have, and still makes the 50% Move for AOA/AOD better. I guess that includes Aim now as well, On Target increased Aim from Step to 50% move.

Actually, I should stop using AOA to represent All-Out Attack if I'm incorporating Cole's All-Out-Aim. AOAim/AOAttack should be the new precedent I guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
If we're looking for rules on footwork, bad footing rules aren't a bad place to start.
Yeah, I understand going full-speed should be the hardest to keep footing, but there always being some risk while moving about makes sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
I'd like to know if we are using the lower AP costs for movement.
Yep, go ahead and win with your godly guerilla abilities =/

I guess I'm going to have to start using Waits now
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