Combining and Layering Flexible Armor Against Firearms

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

There's a RAW difference, actually: Hardened DR halves the penetration of 1d(2) but has no effect on 2d.

Point. Hardened is so rare (aside from Spaceships and maybe a few templates, I don't think it ever shows up in GURPS books beyond Basic Set) I sometimes forget about it.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

There's a RAW difference, actually: Hardened DR halves the penetration of 1d(2) but has no effect on 2d.

While this is true, hardened armor doesn't really represent anything real; while plenty of armor is designed to be specifically resistant to specific attack types, the way you make it resistant to everything is by just giving it more DR.

[weby]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Point. Hardened is so rare (aside from Spaceships and maybe a few templates, I don't think it ever shows up in GURPS books beyond Basic Set) I sometimes forget about it.

The UT has it too. (For a few things like: Warsuit, Ablative Foam, Force Shield Bracelet).

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Point. Hardened is so rare (aside from Spaceships and maybe a few templates, I don't think it ever shows up in GURPS books beyond Basic Set) I sometimes forget about it.

Ultratech uses it.

Not sure whether it's used in any powers builds but it might be.

Originally Posted by Anthony

While this is true, hardened armor doesn't really represent anything real; while plenty of armor is designed to be specifically resistant to specific attack types, the way you make it resistant to everything is by just giving it more DR.

Hardened doesn't make it more resistant to everything. It makes it more resistant to things with armor divisors.

The discussion around armor-piercing arrowheads and superior armor, while not typically put in terms of the Hardened enhancement, are effectively talking about exactly that.

[General Lee]

Originally Posted by Tyneras

How do your calculations work out if you factor in the 1.3 to 1.7 armor divisors a lot of modern bullets would have? I recall a lot of the more detailed ballistics models for GURPS include them in calculations of penetration.

I know that a lot of house rules exists dealing with penetration, wounding factor and damage in many different ways, but applying the Armor Divisors – whatever may it be (2, 1.6, 1.5, 1.3, etc.) – to the topic of the thread would be no difference from the normal.

For example, if I shot a combined soft armor of 4 layers of level IIIa with a APHC 5.56mm round from an AR-style rifle with 14,5” barrel [4d+2(2)], capable to penetrate, on average, armor with DR30+ (or well above Level III, but inferior to Level IV), the House Rule* I was elaborating kicks in, because DR12 is no match for this round. So, I am against a foe with an equivalent armor of DR16 (4+4+4+4). Applying the armor divisor of 2 is as if the Armor only have DR 8.

*Considering only the layer as having original DR/3. You also could do it using Armor as Dice, from Cole’s “Gamming Ballistic”, but Tomsdad already cover it. Varyon approach of considering squares of each layer added to have the square root of the product, would have a higher DR, but still incapable to stop this bullet.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Hardened doesn't make it more resistant to everything. It makes it more resistant to things with armor divisors.

Which doesn't make much sense, because armor divisors are not a single thing.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

The discussion around armor-piercing arrowheads and superior armor, while not typically put in terms of the Hardened enhancement, are effectively talking about exactly that.

The key question for kinetic penetrators is that, in a collision, whichever object is weaker yields first. Thus, you want to harden your penetrator to exceed the hardness of the armor, and harden your armor to exceed the hardness of the penetrator.

However, this is not universal hardening -- this is hardening your armor against hard tipped kinetic penetrators. It's not going to do anything meaningful against, say, energy weapons.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Which doesn't make much sense, because armor divisors are not a single thing.

The key question for kinetic penetrators is that, in a collision, whichever object is weaker yields first. Thus, you want to harden your penetrator to exceed the hardness of the armor, and harden your armor to exceed the hardness of the penetrator.

However, this is not universal hardening -- this is hardening your armor against hard tipped kinetic penetrators. It's not going to do anything meaningful against, say, energy weapons.

That doesn't mean Hardened isn't a thing. It means that Aspected Hardened is a thing.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

That doesn't mean Hardened isn't a thing. It means that Aspected Hardened is a thing.

The point is, aspected hardened is the only thing -- and is not restricted to things with armor divisors, you can make armor selectively better against anything you choose.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Anthony

The point is, aspected hardened is the only thing -- and is not restricted to things with armor divisors, you can make armor selectively better against anything you choose.

Hardened is certainly not going to help you against things without armor divisors.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Hardened is certainly not going to help you against things without armor divisors.

Armor can be optimized against any category of attack. Real-world 'Hardened' armor is just optimized against a certain class of kinetic penetrator.