Can In Nomine be resurrected?

[ak_aramis]

Originally Posted by Refplace

I can see that. GURPS is a more crunchy system and I can easily see where people favor one type over the other. What I dont understand is why that precludes doing the same setting with two different rules systems.

It's not that a generic game cannot make a conversion... it's that the conversion for some settings involves breaking the mechanics of the host system and/or deleting some of the mechanics that were specific to the feel.

The d66 and the forces mechanics don't translate well; they're integral to the setting. Forces are the foundational element; forcing them accurately into GURPS breaks GURPS (by changing how damage and Char Gen works) and breaks the IN setting, because they have very different mechanical linkages.

Further, the forces mechanic is known to the characters, since they can sense them; this compligates GURPS builds to account for counting forces.

[Hide]

Well, I see it this way: Right now IN (In Nomine) is trapped in the permission paradox; you cannot develop more stuff because it seems there is not enough market, but you cannot get more people interested on it because there is no material.

I feel there is a bit of friction revolving around the conversion of IN to GURPS, but I believe that doing a compliant conversion is not impossible. Considering dice ultimately translates to numbers and numbers can be manipulated with math, then it should be possible mapping IN dice rolls to GURPS. On the other hand, it seems you (some people here) are very familiar with the system, so perhaps you could help in the making of an IN4e conversion (In Nomine for GURPS) and “patch” the stuff which seems harder to transpose. If you are familiar with GURPS and IN then you could make the arrangements (as in math) to adjust the specs to whatever you require.

In my opinion, there’s more weight in reviving IN, than in maintaining it exactly as is (i.e. “dead”, “forsaken”, etc.). And I think GURPS could be a good way to jump-start IN, because it is the “universal system” with over a million posts (in its forum section).

If the goal is reviving IN, then to achieve this feat you might require attracting new players, and new players are not familiar with IN (which translates into flexibility, because new players won’t have the same expectations as the "older players"). And being the older players you could make all the adjustments you require to build IN4e as needed.

AFAIK, there are several books which add to GURPS in the ways of doing things (such as tactical shooting, technical grappling, the pyramid issue with Know Your Own Strenght and ritual path magic). All of these (I presume) were pushed by individuals. So IN4e seems to have room.

Finally, I don’t think IN is “down” just because; I believe companies have a colder approach which is mostly translated to cost-benefit. Thinking out loud, (if the problem is money) someone could ask the company for permission to make a Patreon and develop a draft of IN4e. The project could advance as it is backed up by people financing the project. Or you could take the kick-start approach. I don’t know what the limitations of these options are. But if it was possible licensing/producing Shantae (CAPCOM platform game), doing IN4e is at least as plausible.

I wonder what the official mechanisms for market research and/or to enact projects are; I think that’s managed via (e) mail, sales and perhaps convention polls... not sure. However, most probably this forum is the cradle of SJG's captive clients. So, to begin with, maybe you could start a poll here (perchance in the GURPS section) and ask who wants to make an IN4e supplement (not how they feel about it). The company could check the user-logs and validate the “votes” (yes/no answers) via user tenure.

Perhaps what you need is a group of people (not the company) willing to take on the task of reviving IN, with a set of very clear goals. And the question would be, who’s interested in doing so?

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Hide

Finally, I don’t think IN is “down” just because; I believe companies have a colder approach which is mostly translated to cost-benefit. Thinking out loud, (if the problem is money) someone could ask the company for permission to make a Patreon and develop a draft of IN4e. The project could advance as it is backed up by people financing the project. Or you could take the kick-start approach. I don’t know what the limitations of these options are. But if it was possible licensing/producing Shantae (CAPCOM platform game), doing IN4e is at least as plausible.


Perhaps what you need is a group of people (not the company) willing to take on the task of reviving IN, with a set of very clear goals. And the question would be, who’s interested in doing so?

Based on previous posts I think a freelancer based Patreon or Kickstarter are very unlikely. For Kickstarter they pretty much have a project written before even announcing it. This helps them keep on release targets, and using staff minimizes issues if it does not fund,plus helps insure quality.
For Patreon that seems even less likely and they havent done it, though I could see people asking for and getting permission to run a fan site funded by Patreon. That already happens with a few GURPS authors.
Generating more buzz about IN would IMO be a good thing.


As for new product we have I think the following options.
1) A new edition of IN, this would automatically generate buzz and hopefully attract new people to the line.
2) New supplements, generates less buzz but reduces the IN is dead why should I bother meme. Also gives existing fans new material.
However I think both those ideas are on hold due to limited sales.

3) A GIN new edition. Also hampered by perceived limited interest but perhaps possible as an update from Third Edition to Fourth Edition. That would require an author willing to do it and SJG approving it and willing to foot the production costs. Both are encouraged by people embracing the idea and discouraged by resistance to the idea. It just does not make sense if it wont be profitable.
Personally I think I could write a GIN new edition that would be fairly faithful to the setting and short enough that its not a major risk to SJG (smaller means lower editing and production costs) but it would be unlikely to resolve at least one of Dataweavers issues (exact point balance for each Band and Choir) and unlikely to get permission to write it, especially if perceived interest was low.
If a more well known author were to tackle it that would likely help them get permission as their name would generate more buzz.

So it seems were kind of stuck. Too bad,because I believe option 3 is most likely and would generate some new sales of the various Superior books which might in turn encourage option 1 and 2.

[ak_aramis]

It's been implied by several SJG staff that RPG's are done more out of love than profit in the last several years; it's been pretty explicit that SJG could make their money fastest by simply dumping everything but munchkin...

SJ has also noted that it's nice that SJG isn't publicly traded, as it allows him to pursue artistic merit rather than profit alone. On the other hand, he's not going to continue lines that aren't profitable to some level; he has to pay all the staff, himself included. (I don't have a clue whether he gives himself a salary, nor if there are other owners.) And it needs to be enough to eat, and in the US, to afford health insurance.

There's also an issue that I don't know the answer to: Did SJG buy IN, or did they license it from the original publisher?

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by ak_aramis

There's also an issue that I don't know the answer to: Did SJG buy IN, or did they license it from the original publisher?

I thought that was answered in the forum, if I recall correctly they have no rights limitations that would affect them publishing material.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by ak_aramis

The d66 and the forces mechanics don't translate well; they're integral to the setting.

This assertion confuses me. A task resolution system is a task resolution system, there may be a scaling problem if results vary dramatically between different systems, but I've never felt that they define a setting. As for forces, they're just levels.

[Hide]

Let’s assume there are hands willing to make GIN (In Nomine GURPS 4e, sums it better than IN4e):

Why would probability be against this project?

I understand the natural caution when making projects with risky approaches. One of the biggest problems for a company is investing on unsuccessful deliverables.

However, IMO there won’t be any investment here (from the company), just the permission. Right? The point of a Kick-Starter is funding projects so you do not have to take all the risk by yourself, isn’t? Won’t kick-starter also allow this project talking for itself?

Perhaps the biggest problem would be devoting the company’s personnel (their time) to producing (editing, proofing, etc.) the book. But that shall be paid by the funding. Even so, Patreon could be a mechanism to pay a writer (s) for the job, without the need of risking the company’s assets (If further precautions were needed, which I regard as an extreme situation).

So, what is the problem if (for example) a Kick-Starter gathers all the funds for GIN?

As I see it, the argument “too risky for profits” is offset by the fact that the company won’t be directly spending its resources, thanks to the people willing to fund the book. If we think about it, this won’t be a negative or zero-sum project; there is also the byproduct of directly assessing IN’s profitability, tackling a potential market or even keeping/motivating the captive clients with more GURPS material.

Or what I am missing among those lines?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Hide

However, IMO there won’t be any investment here (from the company), just the permission. Right?

A pure fan project doesn't require SJG investment but also isn't likely to qualify as 'resurrected'. An official product does require effort.

Originally Posted by Hide

The point of a Kick-Starter is funding projects so you do not have to take all the risk by yourself, isn’t? Won’t kick-starter also allow this project talking for itself?

There's a chunk of work to setting up a kickstarter.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Anthony

There's a chunk of work to setting up a kickstarter.

Also thee putting the company's reputation behind it and that has value.
If the product is delivered late or of poor quality it can hurt the reputation of the company as well as future kickstarters. Brands can have considerable value, even its not something we can see or tax.

[Hide]

Note that I am not suggesting a fan based project. The suggestion here is fan funding the GIN project for the company, using a mechanism akin to kick-starter (or kick starter).

Fans could participate in the making, but ultimately it should be approved (revised) by the company. If someone gives you permission to use their name/brand, it obviously won’t be without meeting certain conditions. Companies usually state those.

In other words,

What I understand from the previous comments is that the main issue seems to be the cost/profit variable. Hence the funding suggestion. With people willing/capable of pushing the project (which seems available), investment (from kick-starter) and permission (from the company) you could make GIN offsetting most of the negative variables.