Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games

[Rasputin]

Originally Posted by Anthony

2e with skills and powers was complicated (and broken).

Broken is an understatement. I figured out how to make a cleric who could cast Slay Living 1/day at first level, and I'm not one to really push the system. Some serious munchkins could have a field day with it.

[robertsconley]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Maybe, but I'm with Andrew on this one D&D had about a decade headstart on GURPS thats a huge market lead to build your brand and alot of time when the news was talking about it and religious groups fighting it bring it to mainstream consciousness.

It not just the first mover advantage. As much as I like GURPS, D&D is an example of a first of it kind work that got it right from the beginning. It wasn't perfect by far, but it was more than good enough. Then throw in first mover, wealth of support, and so on. That made D&D not only the market leader but the dominant brand by far for decades.

For example people mock D&D for this but it had a killer feature in that one of the adventures can be described in a paragraph and supported in a few pages.

The dungeon. Which is draw a maze with rooms, populate the rooms with monsters, treasures, and traps. Leave some of them empty. Put the characters at the entrance, start the session.

There is literally no other kind of adventure that can be described so tersely yet be understandable to the novice.

While the abstraction of D&D combat is another. If your character's hit points goes to zero you done. Cross-index your level and opponent AC and roll that number or higher on a d20.

Unsatisfying that is to fans of GURPS, Runequest, and a dozen other fantasy RPGs. It is more than good enough for the larger hobby.

So what about the OP> I stated what I would do in similar threads. The general principle would be to do the above but in a way that keeps the flavor of GURPS which for me is fantasy at the 120 point heroic level. Sideline the options in favor of tight package that define archetypes. Then present the options like how Dungeon Fantasy does later.

Finally write a half dozen adventure illustrating how the above works and make them fun and interesting.
And do the above in a way that doesn't add to SJ Game overhead.
The result would not overtake D&D but it would establish a solid niche with a influx of fans some of which will move on to the full blown system.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by robertsconley

So what about the OP> I stated what I would do in similar threads. The general principle would be to do the above but in a way that keeps the flavor of GURPS which for me is fantasy at the 120 point heroic level. Sideline the options in favor of tight package that define archetypes. Then present the options like how Dungeon Fantasy does later.

Finally write a half dozen adventure illustrating how the above works and make them fun and interesting.
And do the above in a way that doesn't add to SJ Game overhead.
The result would not overtake D&D but it would establish a solid niche with a influx of fans some of which will move on to the full blown system.

So like DF Henchmen?

[robertsconley]

Originally Posted by Refplace

So like DF Henchmen?

Yes in terms of power level but with templates with less options. The goal is to have the entry point getting the person to play a GURPs character quickly but allow a minimal amount of customization to get a taste of the flexibility that awaits once they master the initial section.

It going to be a juggling act that need playtesting to find the sweet spot.

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by robertsconley

Yes in terms of power level but with templates with less options. The goal is to have the entry point getting the person to play a GURPs character quickly but allow a minimal amount of customization to get a taste of the flexibility that awaits once they master the initial section.

You mean like GURPS Lite?

We're forever talking about simplified GURPS for newbies. It makes me think that we think, deep down, that GURPS just isn't newbie-friendly, and that's just the way it is. Maybe, we believe, if we write yet another pared-down GURPS that isn't fully GURPS newbies won't be intimidated by it.

[Christopher R. Rice]

What we need is GURPS Pointless. No point costs. No accounting. Fast and easy character creation. Everything priced in terms of "slots" and then package it with an interesting setting. Once you have them hooked on the resolution system point them to the main system like Willy Wonka showing off his chocolate factory and then sing Pure Imagination softly in their ear. Well, maybe not that last one. But you get the idea.

[Andrew Hackard]

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

What we need is GURPS Pointless.

But maybe not with that name, because my brain went -- well, never mind where my brain went. Suffice to say that we don't need to give snarky people ammunition.

BTW, if this discussion gets much more focused on fixing GURPS specifically, that part of the conversation probably should move to the GURPS forum.

[bert]

Originally Posted by Andrew Hackard

BTW, if this discussion gets much more focused on fixing GURPS specifically, that part of the conversation probably should move to the GURPS forum.

If I may, I think what should be fixed belongs in this thread, and how belongs in the GURPS forum.

[Andrew Hackard]

Originally Posted by bert

If I may, I think what should be fixed belongs in this thread, and how belongs in the GURPS forum.

If it's specifically and only about GURPS, put it in the GURPS forum. If you're comparing GURPS to other games, it can go here.

[ak_aramis]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

You mean like GURPS Lite?

We're forever talking about simplified GURPS for newbies. It makes me think that we think, deep down, that GURPS just isn't newbie-friendly, and that's just the way it is. Maybe, we believe, if we write yet another pared-down GURPS that isn't fully GURPS newbies won't be intimidated by it.

Even GURPS Lite isn't newbie friendly. The issue is the way point based building works in GURPS.

Let's compare to another, later, breakout that was, for over a decade, stomping GURPS in the race for customers... World of Darkness

Both use point building. GURPS uses a single pool. WoD multiple pools
For those unaware, let's use a VTM character
9 attributes in 3 categories. Start with 1 in each. the three sub-pools are 7, 5, and 3; assign those to categories, then split those points as desired to the atts in the category, with a maximum stat of 5.
Skills/Talents/Knowledges: 13/9/5, Again, pick which goes to each category, then spread
Disciplines: 3 points, across a dozen or more
Backgrounds: 5 points, from a dozen or more
Virtues: 7 across 2.
Freebie points: 7(+flaws-merits). Can add to any of the above. Note Merits and flaws

Corebook cheat sheets run 2 pages plus the character sheet, and allow a wide breadth of char gen. retyping the lists to include the player's guide merits and flaws, additional skills, backgrounds, disciplines, and virtues, and, in 2 column 10-pitch typed still, only 3 sides plus character sheet.

It's more steps, but each step is less imposing a choice. It provides a structure for building. GURPS can do the same, but doesn't include mechanical enforcement to nearly the same level.

Essentially, WoD enforces a reasonable build. Yes, some min-maxing happens, but it takes effort to build a truly worthless character.