Bullets: Overpenetration, Tumbling, Traveling

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Eukie

I've gotten much use out of Kneubuehl's Wound Ballistics: Basics and Applications, which addresses Fackler, MacPherson, and other authors and also gives a thorough treatment of the underlying physics.

Is it available for less than $200-250?

[Gigermann]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Is it available for less than $200-250?

I bet somebody would cover you if it meant more/better GURPS gunnery :P

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by L.J.Steele

Bullets are random.

Injuries in general are random (or more accurately, are determined by a lot of things that are way below the resolution of the game system and are difficult to control under combat conditions, and not really all that easy to control even under operating room conditions).

[Eukie]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Is it available for less than $200-250?

Well you can find used copies for about $150...

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Injuries in general are random (or more accurately, are determined by a lot of things that are way below the resolution of the game system and are difficult to control under combat conditions, and not really all that easy to control even under operating room conditions).

I guess that randomness can partly be shown with the dice roll (although even some of those are not random* enough since they are partly designed to model performance against RHA) I've seen a couple of grazing house rules that kind of mitigate this.




*and some are just quirks of the dice and adds system 2d-1 is more random than 1d+2

[acrosome]

For one thing, the OP really has to disabuse himself of the idea that a .22 makes for some sort of uber-skull-execution round that is better than "larger caliber bullets." That is farcical. A 9mm will be much better than a .22. The "lighter bullets tend to bounce around in the target or tumble better" meme has to die. It's wrong. It isn't "smaller bullets", it's Spitzer bullets. Don't challenge me on this- I'll win. :)

A huge discussion on terminal ballistics is here. Really, that thread should be stickied or something because the gun-fanboy-terminal-ballistics ridiculousness comes up all the time. That's why I put it in my sig. :)

For the record, I'm not a big fan of Dave Grossman and On Killing, either. I'm definitely not alone.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by acrosome

For one thing, the OP really has to disabuse himself of the idea that a .22 makes for some sort of uber-skull-execution round that is better than "larger caliber bullets."

It's isn't a matter of 'better'. I wasn't arguing that .22 bullets would outperform larger and heavier bullets. I was just making the point that with correct shot placement, any commonly available cartridge has more than enough power to kill a human or similarly sized animal with a close-range shot to the brain.

It's a fact that the .22 Short at point-blank is used in the real world to kill caprids, porcids and bovines that have skulls as thick or thicker than humans. These don't work only on a critical hit. They work every time the skill roll isn't failed, at a rate approaching 100% for experienced professionals. .22 LR will also work from anywhere up to 30 yards, as long as shot placement is exact.

Skulls might have DR 2 against typical blunt trauma or even slashes, but they stop well short of actually providing 4 points of DR against low-caliber hollow-point bullets that are aimed to kill.

The skull doesn't have uniform thickness, either, and the angle of the shot also plays a part. At -7 for a Skull shot, a character is already taking a penalty to hit above and beyond what the size of the target would dictate, so I don't know how much of an extra penalty would be fair, but it is definitely possible to aim for areas of the Skull other than Eye to avoid having the Skull DR deflect your shot.

And, sure, it's easy to say that these aren't combat applications and one should use Professional Skill (Butcher), but the fact is that shooting a police informant or CIA traitor in the back of the head with a suppressed .22 is very much an adventuring application and it should be possible to hit the right spot on the skull to get reliable penetration with a hollow-point bullet by rolling against the skills that a highly-trained covert operative will have on his character sheet.

[acrosome]

Jesus Hansen Christ, Icelander- given what you know about me do you really think I'm trying to claim that a .22 can't kill you? I'm a freakin' trauma surgeon! :)

Or, for that matter, that I'm in any way less familiar with skull anatomy than you are?

This is what I was talking about:

Originally Posted by FF_Ninja

...small caliber rounds have a tendency to tumble when they impact (resulting in more internal damage) and travel when impacting a bone, as opposed to their larger caliber brethren which generally just over-penetrate.

That said, you're talking about situations in which a .22 is essentially held to the head of an unsuspecting or unresisting (bovine) target. In such cases I have no objections to fiat allowing max damage, given no failed roll. Just as I would with a 9mm, which would do more damage and not "just over-penetrate." I'm with Tomsdad on this. He also expressed doubt about larger bullet causing more damage, which is a promising start, but his neglect of other factors shows that his understanding of terminal ballistics is still a bit incomplete. I cannot tell you how many times I've heard the ridiculous meme that .22 are somehow super-lethal on skull hits because they "tumble" or "bounce around" inside the skull. They don't. I mean, yeah, bizarre stuff happens now and then... but they don't. In fact in addition to being low-velocity most .22 bullets are round-nosed rather than Spitzers, and thus if anything much less likely to tumble.

I'll make the usual caveat about bullets deformed by ricochet or hitting bone.

The skull should probably be DR1 vs gunfire, anyway. Or at the very least using your system of ignoring the 0.5 DR modifier for hollow points for skull hits. That seems eminently reasonable.

[(E)]

Originally Posted by acrosome

That said, you're talking about situations in which a .22 is essentially held to the head of an unsuspecting or unresisting (bovine) target. In such cases I have no objections to fiat allowing max damage, given no failed roll..

5 to 10 meters would be the standard range(for me anyway), unless the animal is incapacitated there is no way I am going to risk being that close on the off chance it goes wrong.

[acrosome]

Originally Posted by (E)

5 to 10 meters would be the standard range(for me anyway), unless the animal is incapacitated there is no way I am going to risk being that close on the off chance it goes wrong.

And you would do more damage with a 9mm... That's my point, not the distance. Don't get obsessive about a single throw-away line, E. No slight was meant about your marksmanship. :)