Dungeon Fantasy Monsters 2 and Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game Reprint

[Rasputin]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

Have you considered releasing a book of D&D conversions using the Open Game License? This wouldn't let you do beholders, but I think might've let you do bodaks and gorgons.

This would be an awful idea. I'm all on-board with drawing from the same well as D&D (i.e., mythology and popular culture) where they fill a good niche. In fact, if a monster from popular culture or mythology or an original monster would fill the same niche, you should always go with the monster from popular culture or mythology since that lets you convey these concepts to others who don't yet play your game. But going after D&D's original monsters is awful since what you'll wind up playing is D&D with 3d6, which is a terrible sales pitch. You're already saying that you want folks to play your game instead of or (more realistically) alongside D&D. Why would you waste money on the same experience as the one you already bought?

[acmegamer]

Originally Posted by Rasputin

This would be an awful idea. I'm all on-board with drawing from the same well as D&D (i.e., mythology and popular culture) where they fill a good niche. In fact, if a monster from popular culture or mythology or an original monster would fill the same niche, you should always go with the monster from popular culture or mythology since that lets you convey these concepts to others who don't yet play your game. But going after D&D's original monsters is awful since what you'll wind up playing is D&D with 3d6, which is a terrible sales pitch. You're already saying that you want folks to play your game instead of or (more realistically) alongside D&D. Why would you waste money on the same experience as the one you already bought?

Because maybe they prefer GURPs game mechanics but not DnD game mechanics. It's not the same experience.

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by Rasputin

This would be an awful idea. I'm all on-board with drawing from the same well as D&D (i.e., mythology and popular culture) where they fill a good niche. In fact, if a monster from popular culture or mythology or an original monster would fill the same niche, you should always go with the monster from popular culture or mythology since that lets you convey these concepts to others who don't yet play your game. But going after D&D's original monsters is awful since what you'll wind up playing is D&D with 3d6, which is a terrible sales pitch. You're already saying that you want folks to play your game instead of or (more realistically) alongside D&D. Why would you waste money on the same experience as the one you already bought?

My big concern is that copying the art and nothing else is worse. It makes it painfully obvious that your art is being done on the cheap. Embracing being a D&D knock-off looks more like a choice, rather than something you're forced to by budget constraints. Plus...

Originally Posted by acmegamer

Because maybe they prefer GURPs game mechanics but not DnD game mechanics. It's not the same experience.

Yup. For example, a common gripe about D&D is that ludicrous HP totals tend to keep high-level characters alive in ways that make no sense. In GURPS on the other hand, your swashbuckler might have an amazing Parry score, but she could still die from a knife to the heart if she doesn't see it coming. DFRPG has a lot of potential as the grim-n-gritty alternative to D&D.

[revshafer]

That and the higher level monsters get by from nerfing character abilities and spells. 4E tried to solve by trying to keep the same level of difficulty throughout the levels. GURPS tries to solve this by having a certain amount of vulnerability that each character and monster shares. Combat is dangerous.

[b-dog]

I totally disagree with the idea that GURPS DF should not try to have equivalent monsters the AD&D has because there are many times when the DM wants to play some old school adventure that he played when he was young like Gygax’s adventures. The DM can play DF adventures too but sometimes the old school itch happens and you want to see how those adventures play out with GURPS DF.

[Dalin]

Originally Posted by b-dog

Sometimes the old school itch happens and you want to see how those adventures play out with GURPS DF.

Sure, but it's not especially difficult to whip up stats for monsters. I've been running D&D adventures with GURPS since the mid-1990s. I rarely spend much time "converting" the monsters. I just make them do what the D&D monsters used to do, but using GURPS. Occasionally there's something that would benefit from a more thoughtful conversion, but usually it's just, Roll vs. HT... ah, you feel a sepulchral chill suffuse you, lose 7 FP [or HP or ST or MV or whatever seems like a good match]. I definitely enjoy official versions, but I also love seeing entirely new beasties that nobody expects.

[Dalin]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

My reaction to the art started off a "oh wow this is beautiful", then became, "heh, an off-brand aboleth" when I got to the deep beyonder, then turned to confusion when I saw the glaudernaut and reskinned, which conceptually speaking have almost nothing in common with the D&D creatures they share art with. Still thinking it was original art, I wondered if SJGames had had the bad luck to hire an unusually uncreative fantasy artist or something.

I doubt I'm unique here. I suspect just about anyone who learned D&D between 2000 and 2008, and a good chunk of those who learned it between 2008 and 2014 (the era of the great Pathfinder vs. 4e split), is going to have a similar experience reading this book.

Hmm. Maybe I don't have a good visual memory. I didn't notice any of this until it was pointed out in this thread. My DFRPG players and I have been impressed with the art so far, though I need to get a print copy before I can display it to best advantage.

[b-dog]

Originally Posted by Dalin

Sure, but it's not especially difficult to whip up stats for monsters. I've been running D&D adventures with GURPS since the mid-1990s. I rarely spend much time "converting" the monsters. I just make them do what the D&D monsters used to do, but using GURPS. Occasionally there's something that would benefit from a more thoughtful conversion, but usually it's just, Roll vs. HT... ah, you feel a sepulchral chill suffuse you, lose 7 FP [or HP or ST or MV or whatever seems like a good match]. I definitely enjoy official versions, but I also love seeing entirely new beasties that nobody expects.

I still say that Dr. Kromm would do a great job making monsters like beholders, mind fosters etc. and then crank them up to 11 on the dial to give the players something to think about. Then you could just plug those monsters into an old school dungeon and challenge the PCs, GURPS and AD&D play differently and I feel GURPS DF PCs are much more powerful and have much more options so the monsters need to be turned up many knotches to have the same effect.

Plus being able to use old modules in a pinch sure is useful IMO.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by b-dog

I still say that Dr. Kromm would do a great job making monsters like beholders, mind fosters etc. and then crank them up to 11 on the dial to give the players something to think about. Then you could just plug those monsters into an old school dungeon and challenge the PCs, GURPS and AD&D play differently and I feel GURPS DF PCs are much more powerful and have much more options so the monsters need to be turned up many knotches to have the same effect.

Plus being able to use old modules in a pinch sure is useful IMO.

No doubt but as he said thats liable to get them in a lawsuit.
Direct conversions need to be fan based, meantime he can do public domain monsters that D&D also took from myth or come up with new ones.

[b-dog]

One question I have with the first monster book was why liches didn’t get compartmentalized minds so they could cast a spell on each PC each round that way they would seem more like AD&D where they can reign terror on dungeon delivers. Imagine if a lich could cast 5 spells per round then he would instill major fear.