Question about the Hocus-Pocus dance

[hcobb]

Would you let a hero wait until everybody else had acted, then drop his two-handed steel weapon and cast a full-IQ spell?

"That's what it's all about!"

[JimmyPlenty]

Whether they dropped it having "waiting for an opening" or just because their DX was highest, the answer would be "not without the -4 penalty" (and even then can they cast the spell without moving their hands?). They had the weapon in their hand during that time frame, so the -4 would stick.

[Steve Plambeck]

Not sure what you mean by "a full IQ spell?" Henry.

I always ran combat phases by naming the next adjDX round (working from highest to lowest) and calling for actions from anyone with that adjDX or higher who has not acted yet. If a character with adjDX 14 has waited without acting until I call for actions from anyone with adjDX 11 or higher, it's allowed to act in the adjDX 11 round. But all opponents acting in the same round must roll tie-breakers to see who goes first and last.

However I do not extend the phase beyond the lowest adjDX present. If that's 8, and I call for actions from adjDX 8 or higher, the figure with the 14 has to jump in then, and roll a tiebreaker against the adjDX 8 figure. If that round ends without the adjDX 14 figure jumping in, then I call the turn over; the adjDX 14 figure has missed it's chance to act by waiting too long. I wouldn't run a round for adjDX 7 if there were no adjDX 7 figures, so that adjDX 14 character would just be out of luck.

This way deferred actions just become part of the normal sequence. And a character may always attempt to go last of all, but there's no guarantee it will work, and waiting too long risks losing your chance to act entirely.

I wouldn't be totally strict about it though if a new player was just learning the game.

[Steve Plambeck]

Originally Posted by JimmyPlenty

Whether they dropped it having "waiting for an opening" or just because their DX was highest, the answer would be "not without the -4 penalty" (and even then can they cast the spell without moving their hands?). They had the weapon in their hand during that time frame, so the -4 would stick.

I know that makes logical sense, but "DROP WEAPON" isn't actually an option, and in every other case dropping your weapon is treated as a free action -- it doesn't use up one's chance to act.

In fact the only time dropping weapons is mentioned in the List Of Options, it's incidental to picking CHANGE WEAPONS, under which you do get to ready your new weapon after dropping the old one in the same combat phase. CHANGE WEAPON is identical to READY WEAPON with the drop included. As READY WEAPON and CAST SPELL are equally weighted as valid choices from the List Of Options, it would be an unfair application of the rules to disallow CAST SPELL in a situation you'd have to allow READY WEAPON.

This wizard actually could chose CHANGE WEAPON to drop its sword and ready its staff if it wanted to. Readying the staff would count as its action, and then spell casting would have to wait another turn. But a staff isn't necessary to cast a spell, so there's no need or reason not to cast the spell on the current turn to act.

If it was near the start of the turn when the wizard said "I've dropped my sword, and I'm casting a spell" would you charge the -4DX then??? If you wouldn't do it then, then we shouldn't be splitting hairs to enforce that -4 later just because the wizard was acting last. Options are limited by engagement status and the amount moved, but nowhere I can see by the order you act in during the turn.

[JimmyPlenty]

I would charge the -4 either way not for any rule other than Wizards cant use iron without the -4 penalty. It isn't about when they act or if they can drop the sword and still act. The iron sword was in the hands of the caster at the start of the turn.

[Steve Plambeck]

Originally Posted by JimmyPlenty

I would charge the -4 either way not for any rule other than Wizards cant use iron without the -4 penalty. It isn't about when they act or if they can drop the sword and still act. The iron sword was in the hands of the caster at the start of the turn.

And that's a perfectly fair choice, and consistent.

The RAW do not speak of the precise moment the iron interference with magic ends when the wizard drops it, so that seems left up to the GM. The wording that the wizard must not have iron "on or about his person" (ITL 140) leaves some leeway. The word "about" could mean different things. Is a sword lying on the floor in the same hex as the wizard "about his person"? I'd buy that. The -4DX could reasonably apply to any iron in the same hex as the wizard, whether the wizard had dropped it or not. That's kind of gritty and realistic feeling. A wizard might have to do some fancy footwork to avoid standing in any hex with a fallen iron weapon, but that's a fun little twist to things.

I interpreted Henry's OP to be more about whether the wizard could wait to go last and still attempt the spell, -4 or no -4. That reference to "full IQ" threw me, even though we'd just talked about that in another thread, because the RAW does still call the -4 for iron a penalty to DX, not IQ.

[hcobb]

A hero casting a "full IQ" (i.e. same IQ as the character) must have both hands empty. Now excuse me as I jab with my steel spear two hexes away while casting a spell 2 IQ points lower than mine with my free hand.

[Nils_Lindeberg]

--- Sorry for the meandering post, it is a somewhat iffy subject ---


RAW there is nothing in the rules that say you shouldn't be able to cast spells with iron close to you some times during your turn or even before you start casting. If that were the case it would also mean that if you got hit by a iron weapon (or almost hit by one) before your turn came to act you would get a -4DX for the iron that was there before you acted. Or when you are in HTH it would be impossible to avoid the -4 if the other opponent had iron on them, even if you cast a spell way below your IQ and no gestures or anything else were needed.

"About your person" most likely refers to holding a door handle, climbing an iron ladder, being manacled or using a spear with an iron tip that were jabbing two hexes away, but it is still on your person. It is an easy definition; is it on your character sheets equipment list or not? Are you currently holding it or not? Or we will have problems with arrows that hit a wizard, are they still in the body, stuck in the leather armor, on the floor in the same hex or did it break-off and bounce away? Too many details. A simple rule is needed.

Initiative order doesn't stop, just because the GM's initiative list stops. You might have unknown entities. Cast a creation spell in a shadow hex, write it on a piece of paper and the other player or GM doesn't know what it is. So the reasonable questions when the last "known" adjDX comes up on the initiative list is to ask if anyone else want's to act? Especially if there are people who haven't acted yet. If this is too much trouble you can always disallow the optional rule of delaying your initiative all together. It is optional for a reason. I don't really see a big need for a house rule on top of the optional rule.

And a free action is a free action. It is even so free that it can happen outside of your turn order when someone jumps you and you drop both your shield and your weapon, and have time to draw your dagger, and that is after you have already acted in your turn.

What happens during a turn is an abstraction and sometimes all you can do is stand up after having taken a voluntary knee and at other times you can move half your MA, draw a weapon and throw it at someone, get jumped by someone, drop your shield and draw your dagger and end up on the floor with that someone in HTH, get hit by a third party while on the ground and be forced to retreat over a cliff, fail your save, and take falling damage 9 meters below. All in one turn. While the guy that lifted his knee from the floor and couldn't do anything else looks on in amazement wondering why sprinters use starting blocks - it should cost them 5 seconds for no good use. :-)

Would it make a difference if the weapon was silver? So it is just about needing hands or not for the casting. That is, you drop the silver weapon, so you can use your hands for gestures (spells at your IQ or one below)? Or you quick draw your silver staff dagger, attacks and also add a free staff blast at the end for attacking with the dagger? That would seem more complicated.

The real question though, that really is about game balance is this scenario:

One wizard delays his adjDX and act after his opponent. He creates a pole weapon myrmidon or a creation with a very high adjDX. Then on the next turn, the pole weapon wielder charges or the high adjDX creature engages. They act first because of said pole weapon or high adjDX and get in at least one attack on the enemy, before he gets a chance to disbelieve. The illusion could be so powerful that even the caster have trouble believing it, but it doesn't matter because no bonus to disbelieve (unless it is both automatic and free) will help the enemy if he never gets to roll the dice.

This scenario doesn't really need the optional rule of delaying to act at the end of the turn, the caster could just have a low adjDX and the result would be the same, but he might then miscast because of his low adjDX - which stll is a balanced choice.

The real problem lies in a creation spell that takes a turn to appear, I assume to give people one turn to react to it, but that can be worked around by having a creation critter with a significantly higher adjDX than the caster and the enemy. Maybe it should have to wait a full turn before it acts, like a caster casting a summon wolf at adjDX 10 would have said wolf act on adjDX 10 next turn, and after that on it's normal adjDX.

The same problem with turn order arises when you fall down involuntarily. The rules say you can do nothing until the next turn, and then you can stand up and it takes a whole turn. So basically, your will miss two attacks if you are slower than your opponent. Sometimes GMs will allow you to change your action and use your action to stand up in stead this turn, but it is not RAW. What is RAW (I think) is that you can get jumped by a guy end up on the floor with him, and then if you haven't acted yet, you can use your attack to disengage from him and stand up immediately. Which is strange.

In short, effects that should take one complete turn sometimes end up taking two actions for some people and sometimes less than one action for others. There is a simple rule from D&D, if I remember correctly, that states that any effect that lasts one turn, will last until the one initiated it, ends his turn next time. So if A knocks B to the ground and stuns him for one round/turn, then B can act right after A's action next turn. Maybe this will be too complicated to include in TFT in some way?

[Steve Plambeck]

Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg

Initiative order doesn't stop, just because the GM's initiative list stops. You might have unknown entities. Cast a creation spell in a shadow hex, write it on a piece of paper and the other player or GM doesn't know what it is. So the reasonable questions when the last "known" adjDX comes up on the initiative list is to ask if anyone else want's to act?

Hmmm. As GM I would call foul on any player casting creation spells into shadow hexes, writing it down on a piece of paper, and not showing it to me, the GM. Bad etiquette at the very least.

ITL 123 says it's purely up to the GM to allow delayed actions or not. I have always chosen to. I've never had a problem with it. You end up doing it anyway if wizards are waiting on Aid spells, so you might as well have a mechanism in mind for regulating it any time it comes up. Never once have I seen it "abused" by any player to delay the game, but if it ever did it's also nice to have a plan already in mind to handle it. But did I ever penalize a player their turn for taking too long? Nope, never had to.

[larsdangly]

Generally speaking, you are free to choose your action up to the moment when you act, restricted only by your previous movement during that turn (and perhaps some special constraints from unusual circumstances). And, dropping something is a free activity that I don't think gets counted as part of your main action. So, on those grounds, this tactic should be street legal.

On the other hand, it goes against the spirit of the rules because the strict movement restrictions on spell casting imply that you are spending most of the turn twiddling your fingers about on a turn when you cast a spell, and thus that your spell casting should suffer the restrictions of having something in your hand if you cast a spell on a turn during which you spent most of the time armed.

This is obviously a judgement call. I'd say if it is a head-to-head competitive bout then the letter of the law permits it and you can proceed. If it is a GM'd game then the GM's judgement should hold in unusual circumstances.