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Old 11-28-2018, 01:44 PM   #41
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: Defensive Auras

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
Rapid strike is a game manuver which allows you to strike twice with one manuever. You don't normally get to interupt a ten maneuver sequence of attacks without taking action of some sort either.
Agreed, that interruptions are pretty clearly spelled out for attacks that interrupt other attacks.

Quote:
The rules for aura mentions neither of those. Nor are there any rules which I'm aware of which says that passive powers can't interupt maneuvers.
I wouldn't call Aura "passive", any more than I'd call an Active Defense such as a Dodge or Parry passive even though those don't require a maneuver to use either.

Innate Attack is an attack power, and Aura (only) adds the ability to automatically damage what touches you. It's not a passive defense of any kind.

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Passive powers not being able to interupt maneuvers would mean that you can walk through area of effect force fields etc. It is neither stated in the rules and it seems to lead to some unreasonable effects.
That's not what we are discussing. A force field that is up and in play is governed by existing rules on pushing or attacking through it. A force field ability that can be cast but has not yet, could not be used to interrupt a Move maneuver, unless used as a Power Block.

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It is not clear that it is after the entire attack is resolved for area effect auras. Powers don't need to mention every single thing possible (especially not if it requires enhancements for the power). Otherwise you wouldn't be able to drop things on foes from high above with Flight without buying Innate Attack for it.
Rules for falling things are in Campaigns, actually. Besides, needing to buy X is certainly an explicit rule rather than something that would be inferred.

Auras are not intended to allow Areas (though I allow them), as the G:Characters requires the Melee limitation.

Powers indeed does not mention everything, which is why it comes back to timing and how you want to make the rules work.

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There is an important difference between trying to justify getting additional powers for free based on the concept you have for your ability (not allowed), and just making indirect use of the game mechanics which your Advantages give you access to (allowed).
Sure, but a good benchmark is "is the desired primary effect covered by other existing abilities they should take instead"
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Old 11-28-2018, 02:05 PM   #42
Andreas
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Default Re: Defensive Auras

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
I wouldn't call Aura "passive", any more than I'd call an Active Defense such as a Dodge or Parry passive even though those don't require a maneuver to use either.

Innate Attack is an attack power, and Aura (only) adds the ability to automatically damage what touches you. It's not a passive defense of any kind.
Active defenses requires you to make a roll to check if they work, and the character gets to decide whether to attempt it. Aura's on the other hand just happen without the character getting any say on the matter. Passive seems a much better description for aura's than for active defenses.

Quote:
That's not what we are discussing. A force field that is up and in play is governed by existing rules on pushing or attacking through it. A force field ability that can be cast but has not yet, could not be used to interrupt a Move maneuver, unless used as a Power Block.
And an aura that is up and in play is goverend by existing rules for auras affecting weapons. An aura which could be activated, but has not yet, could not be used to interupt a rapid strike.

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Sure, but a good benchmark is "is the desired primary effect covered by other existing abilities they should take instead"
As I mentioned a few times earlier, there is no other advantage which could easily represent such a defense. You either need to change how the defense works, or use a lot of custom modifiers.
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Old 11-28-2018, 02:44 PM   #43
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: Defensive Auras

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
Active defenses requires you to make a roll to check if they work, and the character gets to decide whether to attempt it. Aura's on the other hand just happen without the character getting any say on the matter. Passive seems a much better description for aura's than for active defenses.
Attacking someone isn't passive, and again, there's nothing to say that it takes affect during your opponents action rather than after they have completed the action.

Consider this, a character runs across an area with fire. (Area 10d area fire, covering a 2 hex radius). They have the move to completely cross it in a single maneuver. Do you
a) halt movement when they enter the fire (and how far in?), assess damage, see if they suffer ill effects (such as passing out), then continue their turn provided they are still able
b) finish the move maneuver, then assess damage, and see what happens

I'd handled it as (b) as a general rule.

Quote:
As I mentioned a few times earlier, there is no other advantage which could easily represent such a defense. You either need to change how the defense works, or use a lot of custom modifiers.
Untrue. There are many defensive abilities better suited. The two that come to mind are DR if it reduces damage and Obscure if it makes you harder to hit. Innate Attack with or with either Area or Aura simply isn't a defense.

Last edited by naloth; 11-28-2018 at 03:24 PM.
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Old 11-28-2018, 03:54 PM   #44
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Defensive Auras

If someone is running through damaging terrain, I always rule that they take damage as soon as they enter the damaging hex. If they suffer damage, then they suffer shock penalties, distraction penalties, etc. If they go unconscious, suffer a mortal wound, die due their injuries, etc., their action is aborted and they stop in the damaging hex (this is realistic, people who run into burning buildings without proper protective gear usually do not do well).

In the case of the damaging aura, I have had the damage occur simultaneously with the attack. If a melee weapon was knocked from the grasp of the attacker, the attack was aborted (projectiles would have their velocity reduced by the knockback and their damaged reduced proportional to their reduced velocity). For example, an arrow with a velocity of 100 yards per second that suffered 50 yards of knockback would do half damage. Antagonists often have such protections in my campaigns...and they often have DR or Injury Tolerance against the limited attack as well.
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Old 11-28-2018, 06:52 PM   #45
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: Defensive Auras

Well, the rules for fire have specific rules for whether you spend all or part of a turn in the fire, so that might be delayed, but if you were to try and run through an area effect (Wall) power, I'd certainly resolve the damage immediately with the possibility of interrupting your action. However, when actions are actually considered simultaneous, neither can interrupt the other.
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Old 11-28-2018, 09:16 PM   #46
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Defensive Auras

What about a Cosmic modifier that allows the Aura's damage to apply before the attack's damage?
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Old 11-28-2018, 10:30 PM   #47
Andreas
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Default Re: Defensive Auras

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Attacking someone isn't passive, and again, there's nothing to say that it takes affect during your opponents action rather than after they have completed the action.

Consider this, a character runs across an area with fire. (Area 10d area fire, covering a 2 hex radius). They have the move to completely cross it in a single maneuver. Do you
a) halt movement when they enter the fire (and how far in?), assess damage, see if they suffer ill effects (such as passing out), then continue their turn provided they are still able
b) finish the move maneuver, then assess damage, and see what happens

I'd handled it as (b) as a general rule.
It can very well be passive. If the "attack" requires taking no action on your part, then passive is a very good description.

I'd have to take a look at the fire rules for that, but if b) is what the rules says, I would be very tempted to change it to a) in the future. b) could lead to completely unrealistic results such as being able to run through an area hot enough to vaporise you. Regarding how far in the damage is assessed, I might apply damage in multiple stages (with the number of stages based on how much damage the character can be expected to absorb without his actions being hindered).

Quote:
Untrue. There are many defensive abilities better suited. The two that come to mind are DR if it reduces damage and Obscure if it makes you harder to hit. Innate Attack with or with either Area or Aura simply isn't a defense.
The damage DR reduces does not depend on the mass and angle of attack of the projectile like that, nor does the effect of Obscure (unless, as I mentioned, you apply custom modifiers).
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Old 11-29-2018, 10:26 AM   #48
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: Defensive Auras

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
The damage DR reduces does not depend on the mass and angle of attack of the projectile like that, nor does the effect of Obscure (unless, as I mentioned, you apply custom modifiers).
Since Innate Attack doesn't normally do anything about incoming attacks, it's less of a modification to apply something to DR or Obscure.

We keep coming back to trying to justify damage resistance, damage reduction, aiming penalties, or other effects that typically cost points as a side effect of an ability that wouldn't normally provide that benefit ever.
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Old 11-29-2018, 10:35 AM   #49
Andreas
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Default Re: Defensive Auras

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Since Innate Attack doesn't normally do anything about incoming attacks, it's less of a modification to apply something to DR or Obscure.

We keep coming back to trying to justify damage resistance, damage reduction, aiming penalties, or other effects that typically cost points as a side effect of an ability that wouldn't normally provide that benefit ever.
I'm not sure the modification for Innate Attack would be larger than for DR and Obscure. Arguably the Aura modifier is all you need for Innate Attack, and I definitely can't think of any single official enhancement which would give that effect for DR or Obscure.

There are plenty of enhancements which give you effects which the baseline advantage lacks. Side effects of Advantage mechanics are also perfectly fine. What isn't fine is just trying to expand the scope of an advantage beyond what the rules for the advantage gives you.
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Old 11-29-2018, 10:47 AM   #50
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: Defensive Auras

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
I'm not sure the modification for Innate Attack would be larger than for DR and Obscure. Arguably the Aura modifier is all you need for Innate Attack, and I definitely can't think of any single official enhancement which would give that effect for DR or Obscure.

I didn't mean the value of the limitation. It's easier to figure out which modifier should be applied to reduce the amount of protection you get on an ability that already protects you in that fashion.

Aura adds automatic melee attack to anyone that melees with you. It doesn't say anything about giving you any damage reduction or protection from the attack, at all. Any side effect you're getting is worth enough to be priced against what it would cost as a defensive ability.

Quote:
There are plenty of enhancements which give you effects which the baseline advantage lacks. Side effects of Advantage mechanics are also perfectly fine. What isn't fine is just trying to expand the scope of an advantage beyond what the rules for the advantage gives you.
I see this as the latter (expanding scope outside of what the advantage does and into another advantage).

Many abilities are a combination of advantages that work together where you would get the benefits of multiple abilities. Powers has a Obscure & Innate Attack cloud, for example, rather than just giving "damage" or "vision blocking" as a side effect of the other ability via an Enhancement.
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