Powers with Gadget Limitations - is it the thing?

[Say, it isn't that bad!]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Actually, it is technically unbreakable without extra cost if it does not have Breakable. An unbreakable helmet would still transmit force though and an unbreakable sword (or gun) would have no other unusual traits (they just cannot be damaged or destroyed). In addition, if a gadget does not have Can Be Stolen, it cannot be stolen. For example, you could have a magical sword that cannot be broken or stolen by paying for a 1 CP magical gadget (though the GM will likely make you buy the underlying item as Signature Gear in that case).

In addition, the only place that "unbreakable" appears in Characters or Campaigns is on page 40 as an enhancement specific to the Binding advantage.

Note that I can't guarantee the nonexistence of some variant like "un-breakable".

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Actually, it is technically unbreakable without extra cost if it does not have Breakable. An unbreakable helmet would still transmit force though and an unbreakable sword (or gun) would have no other unusual traits (they just cannot be damaged or destroyed). In addition, if a gadget does not have Can Be Stolen, it cannot be stolen. For example, you could have a magical sword that cannot be broken or stolen by paying for a 1 CP magical gadget (though the GM will likely make you buy the underlying item as Signature Gear in that case).

While this is perfectly correct, I would rule that an unbreakable, cannot be stolen gadget is useless for any purpose but to be the physical anchor of a power.

Unless you pay for it somehow, Your gadget-sword perform at best as a cheap improvised weapon, with no quality or Weapon master bonus unless you pay for it to be an actual item (signature gear or accessory perk, depending on the build).
Imbuement would be okay.
If the rules state it should break (on a parry, or when used to pry open a chest or whatever), your wrist break instead. Or something else appropriate to the situation.

[Say, it isn't that bad!]

Originally Posted by Celjabba

While this is perfectly correct, I would rule that an unbreakable, cannot be stolen gadget is useless for any purpose but to be the physical anchor of a power.

Unless you pay for it somehow, Your gadget-sword perform at best as a cheap improvised weapon, with no quality or Weapon master bonus unless you pay for it to be an actual item (signature gear or accessory perk, depending on the build).
Imbuement would be okay.
If the rules state it should break (on a parry, or when used to pry open a chest or whatever), your wrist break instead. Or something else appropriate to the situation.

So, to clarify, the Gadget limitation does not apply any discount. The modifiers you apply to the Gadget limitation, do.

So, the only thing that the Gadget limitation itself applies, is flavour text.

Edit: The gadget limitation and modifiers are described on B116-117.

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by Say, it isn't that bad!

So, to clarify, the Gadget limitation does not apply any discount. The modifiers you apply to the Gadget limitation, do.

So, the only thing that the Gadget limitation itself applies, is flavour text.

Edit: The gadget limitation and modifiers are described on B116-117.

Exactly.

Let's say you design the following power :

Innate attack (1 point cutting, *.25; melee attack, reach 1,C, -20% ; ST-Based +100% ; gadget : Sword(can be stolen, Contest of strength, doesn't work for someone else), -15%) [3]

Do you end up with a "power-created" sword that does +1 cutting damage, that you use as a normal sword, can parry with, which can be temporarily taken from you but which cannot be destroyed nor permanently taken from you ?
This is cheaper than buying a fine orichalcum sword as signature gear.

Even worse, AlexanderHowl suggested you buy instead

Random 1 CP power (gadget : Sword(can be stolen, Contest of strength, doesn't work for someone else), -15%) [1]

Do you end up with a normal unbreakable sword that cannot be permanently taken from you for 1 cp ?
My post above was me saying NO unless you pay for the sword.

[Say, it isn't that bad!]

Originally Posted by Celjabba

Exactly.

Let's say you design the following power :

Innate attack (1 point cutting, *.25; melee attack, reach 1,C, -20% ; ST-Based +100% ; gadget : Sword(can be stolen, Contest of strength, doesn't work for someone else), -15%) [3]

Do you end up with a "power-created" sword that does +1 cutting damage, that you use as a normal sword, can parry with, which can be temporarily taken from you but which cannot be destroyed nor permanently taken from you ?
This is cheaper than buying a fine orichalcum sword as signature gear.

Even worse, AlexanderHowl suggested you buy instead

Random 1 CP power (gadget : Sword(can be stolen, Contest of strength, doesn't work for someone else), -15%) [1]

Do you end up with a normal unbreakable sword that cannot be permanently taken from you for 1 cp ?
My post above was me saying NO unless you pay for the sword.

Well, first-off, where are you getting "ST-Based"? It's not in the basic set.

Next, points have *an explicit conversion to $; [1] is worth $500. As such, the first power you designed is worth $1,500; the second power is worth $500 (if either were bought with cash).

You aren't getting either of them for free; points are valuable. At the level where a sw+1 sword is a worthwhile purchase, even [1] point is going to be something to be pay attention to, because that character is probably [25-50]; characters with higher point totals can very likely afford a better sword.

* Well, actually, they have a number of conversions to $, but this is the one that's relevant for "loose points", as far as I know.

[Taneli]

This is only good for postulating various builds.

Remember that if the world-creator or GM determines that nothing in his world is unbreakable, you Need to take that Can be broken -limitation with whatever HP and DR you and the GM are happy with.

[Taneli]

Also, if the GM determines that having an unbreakable sword in his setting is worth an unusual background worth 20 points, then you Need to take that too.

[Say, it isn't that bad!]

Originally Posted by Taneli

This is only good for postulating various builds.

Remember that if the world-creator or GM determines that nothing in his world is unbreakable, you Need to take that Can be broken -limitation with whatever HP and DR you and the GM are happy with.

That's true; however, any GM assumptions are specific to that setting, so discussing the rules has to take the rules as default, unless the OP specifies otherwise.

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by Say, it isn't that bad!

Well, first-off, where are you getting "ST-Based"? It's not in the basic set.

Gurps Powers p103, expended in Power-up 4 p20

Originally Posted by Say, it isn't that bad!

Next, points have *an explicit conversion to $; [1] is worth $500. As such, the first power you designed is worth $1,500; the second power is worth $500 (if either were bought with cash).

You aren't getting either of them for free; points are valuable. At the level where a sw+1 sword is a worthwhile purchase, even [1] point is going to be something to be pay attention to, because that character is probably [25-50]; characters with higher point totals can very likely afford a better sword.

* Well, actually, they have a number of conversions to $, but this is the one that's relevant for "loose points", as far as I know.

Originally Posted by Taneli

This is only good for postulating various builds.

Remember that if the world-creator or GM determines that nothing in his world is unbreakable, you Need to take that Can be broken -limitation with whatever HP and DR you and the GM are happy with.

Originally Posted by Taneli

Also, if the GM determines that having an unbreakable sword in his setting is worth an unusual background worth 20 points, then you Need to take that too.

Yes, as a GM, I would either forbid it or require it to be paid, in cash or cp.
Actually, since I design the powers in my games, the question wouldn't even arise.

But that was the OP question : if you have a gadget based power, does the power provide the gadget ? (sword, staff, helmet, amulet, ring, ... whatever)

My answer : I am not totally against saying that the power provide a "projection" in the shape of an item that anchor the power, but that item is otherwise useless unless paid for "to give him substance".

One example would be if the player want his gadget to be an indestructible talisman made of a translucent jewel the size of a fist finely sculpted in the shape of a rose, I may agree that he don't have to pay the 10.000.000 $ price, as long as we agree that it cannot be sold, pawned, used as an indestructible pestle to grind diamonds into powder, keeping a blast door open, or any use the player could think of except sitting there looking pretty and tempting thieves.

[Say, it isn't that bad!]

Originally Posted by Celjabba

Gurps Powers p103, expended in Power-up 4 p20

Thanks.

Originally Posted by Celjabba

One example would be if the player want his gadget to be an indestructible talisman made of a translucent jewel the size of a fist finely sculpted in the shape of a rose, I may agree that he don't have to pay the 10.000.000 $ price, as long as we agree that it cannot be sold, pawned, used as an indestructible pestle to grind diamonds into powder, keeping a blast door open, or any use the player could think of except sitting there looking pretty and tempting thieves.

Ah; I understand your point, now.

I would argue that $10,000,000 price and nature as a gemstone automatically includes "can be stolen" at the -40% level, and needs to be payed for with either a commensurate number of points, or a commensurate number of dollars.

For points, I'd apply the "Can be stolen" limitation, as well as any other limitation that seems applicable to the jewel itself, and require [1] for each remaining full or partial $500; that is, *[20] for the full $10,000.

For dollars, I would probably charge the full $10,000; but this could be purchased using ordinary wealth, which scales well, and is fairly replaceable with job rolls.

For a sword, what you are paying for with said innate attack with gadget (can be stolen, breakable); and other limitations, is a sword.

That is, in the case of the jewel, the jewel itself is a physical item separate from the ability/ies it supplies. In the case of the sword, the physical item is the ability/ies it supplies.

So, "it depends", I guess.

* I might instead apply the alternate "points for scaling cash" system proposed by Sean Punch, I think in the DFRPG forum; this would lower the points needed.