FOR STEVE: Stat advancement and XP costs

[platimus]

Please change the labelling of the stat / XP cost table in ITL (don't have it with me, can someone post the page number).

To be fair to all races (those that start below 32 points and those that start above 32 points), it should be labelled like this:

XP cost / Stat increase
100 / 1st and 2nd increase
200 / 3rd increase
400 / 4th increase
800 / 5th increase
1600/ 6th increase
3200/ 7th increase
6400/ 8th increase
double cost each time 9th and later

With the current labeling (34th, 35th, etc.), a starting Giant (41 points) will find it near impossible to reach is full ST40 potential. And starting Halflings (30 points) will quickly catch-up with 32-point races.

This seems like a HUGE flaw that should be corrected before going to print. I'm sorry if you disagree. I'm just trying to help.

[TippetsTX]

This seems to defeat the point, though. Races with higher starting point totals are supposed to have a harder time advancing.

Ironically, you wouldn't have quite the same issue using the original XP advancement rules (not as severe anyway). Just saying.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

This seems to defeat the point, though. Races with higher starting point totals are supposed to have a harder time advancing.

Ironically, you wouldn't have quite the same issue using the original XP advancement rules (not as severe anyway). Just saying.

By defining the scale by extra points rather than "34th or lower: 100 XP", it makes the difference in XP costs for races that start with fewer than 32 points more than just a flat cost at the lowest listed rate. e.g. A halfling gets an offset curve instead of just a 200 XP total difference from the 32-point races - i.e. for the same amount of XP spent on attributes, they'll remain 2 points behind, instead of easily catching up to humans after the first few points.

And if the "41st and later Double cost each time." isn't changed, then it at least makes it possible for giants to improve, rather than starting at 41 points (ST 25 DX 9 IQ 7) and checking the table to see their first extra attribute point will cost 25,600 XP.

So those, it seems to me, are important steps in the right direction.

However the other steps I'd make would be:

* I'd re-allow learning talents/spells up to IQ after character creation (or some other change) so people can still learn a bit without needing 500 XP, and so there isn't a massive XP savings for taking as much IQ as you can stand during creation.

* I'd smooth the curve at both ends, so it takes longer to get to 35-36 points, but does not double to impossible levels at the top.

* I'd give the high-ST races (gargoyles, giants, reptile men) some thought about what their development with experience should be like, given what average members of their species are like, so even if a PC one starts at 32-points, it's not stuck in a human point-total development curve that keeps them from ever being like developed members of their races.

[platimus]

Well said, Skarg. Well said.

Also, based on the comments I saw from Steve before and during the kickstarter, I think the intent was to prevent attribute bloat by limiting (or nearly limiting) PCs to around 8 points of stat advancement. I presume that most of this thinking and chatter was done with humans and demi-humans in mind. That's why I don't think this "defeats the purpose". The purpose is maintained for humans and demi-humans and extrapolated out to other possible PC races as well by listing them as "1st increase" and so on instead of "34th point".

[robertsconley]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

This seems to defeat the point, though. Races with higher starting point totals are supposed to have a harder time advancing.

Why?

In general I am not in favor of rules in RPGs that are there for game balance. The alternative view is how does the rules depict the life of the setting or genre.

In this case platimus makes a good point. If TFT is to depict the life of say giants in the fantasy setting of Cidri then it makes sense that they advance like any other race. Keep in mind there are specific limitation in place for different races. For Giants this means their DX and IQ can't be higher than 10.

Starting out they are ST 25, DX 9, and IQ 7. As a human starting out is ST 8, DX 8, and IQ 8.

Then 6,400 xp later they could be anywhere from ST 33, DX 9, IQ 7, to ST 28, DX 10, IQ 10.

Given that range, I don't see there being a balance issue particularly with the caps on DX and IQ in place.

That what makes sense if the TFT reflect the life of a fantasy setting.

Like any other option if the PC go for this and all make Giant PCs then the campaign will be about an adventuring party of Giants. If the referee doesn't want to deal with Giants as PCs in his campaign (or Elves, or Dwarves) then don't put it on the list that the players can pick from.

[platimus]

Also well said, Mr. Conely.

Here's another way of looking at it:
(I know this is faux-pas for TFT but humor me for a minute)

Characters are at Level 1 when created. ST10 DX12 IQ10 is a 1st level (32-point) Human. ST25 DX9 IQ7 is a 1st level (41-point) Giant. ST8 DX13 IQ9 is a 1st level (30-point) Halfling.

When any of those characters reaches 100XP, they advanced to the "next level" by increasing one attribute. Then they are "2nd Level". They get another 100XP and advance to "3rd Level" by increasing an attribute. At "3rd Level" they need 200XP to advance. So on and so forth.

Barring any sort of magical intervention, an "8th Level" Giant will still be 9 points greater than a human and an "8th Level" human will still be 2 points greater than a halfling. It will be quite difficult for all of them to progress much farther than "9th Level".

End "humor-me" section. I am now prepared to take my flogging for using D&D terms. :)

[hcobb]

The problem with the suggestion is that all Giants (and Gargoyles) simply go to IQ 10 and stay there. Instead of rare geniuses these are now common.

I'd accept the first and second added points post-creation are 100 XP and the 6th added point is 1600 XP with the following racial exceptions:

Gargoyles never pay less than 500 XP to raise an IQ point and never pay more than 1000 XP to raise a ST point.

Giants never pay less than 500 XP to raise an IQ or DX point and never pay more than 500 XP to raise a ST point.

Reptile Men never pay less than 300 XP to raise an IQ or DX point and never pay more than 1500 XP to raise a ST point.

These are all post-creation. (Note that Halflings are getting hit because their 30 starting points are being counted like a human's 32 points so they hit doublings with two fewer attribute points.)

[platimus]

Originally Posted by hcobb

The problem with the suggestion is that all Giants (and Gargoyles) simply go to IQ 10 and stay there. Instead of rare geniuses these are now common.

Only as common as Giant PCs.

I'd accept the first and second added points post-creation are 100 XP and the 6th added point is 1600 XP with the following racial exceptions:

Gargoyles never pay less than 500 XP to raise an IQ point and never pay more than 1000 XP to raise a ST point.

Giants never pay less than 500 XP to raise an IQ or DX point and never pay more than 500 XP to raise a ST point.

Reptile Men never pay less than 300 XP to raise an IQ or DX point and never pay more than 1500 XP to raise a ST point.

These are all post-creation. (Note that Halflings are getting hit because their 30 starting points are being counted like a human's 32 points so they hit doublings with two fewer attribute points.)

The costs are not mine but Steve's / ITL's costs. I made no changes there. One thing at a time. I'm only suggesting that the costs be relabeled (if the relabeling matches Steve's intentions). Debating the finer points of XP costs should be an entirely different thread/topic, IMO.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by hcobb

The problem with the suggestion is that all Giants (and Gargoyles) simply go to IQ 10 and stay there. Instead of rare geniuses these are now common.

I'd accept the first and second added points post-creation are 100 XP and the 6th added point is 1600 XP with the following racial exceptions:

Gargoyles never pay less than 500 XP to raise an IQ point and never pay more than 1000 XP to raise a ST point.

Giants never pay less than 500 XP to raise an IQ or DX point and never pay more than 500 XP to raise a ST point.

Yes, I'd charge more for stat-limited races where increases are supposed to be exceptional. It makes sense from perspectives of self-consistency, relative effect, interesting choices and balance.

Originally Posted by hcobb

Reptile Men never pay less than 300 XP to raise an IQ or DX point and never pay more than 1500 XP to raise a ST point.

That's an interesting idea, that I'll have to sleep on.

[The Wyzard]

Could a gargoyle raise their IQ above 10 using a Wish?