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Old 02-24-2016, 06:20 AM   #11
weby
 
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Default Re: Reality-testing / Playtesting the Guns Default . . .

I have taught the very basics of shooting to and lead though the first pistol shots for quite a high number(20-30?) of people over the years.

My experience is that about 1/3 just cannot do it well. Mostly it seems that they are too afraid of the gun. Very few of those are ever able/willing to overcome it.

About 1/3 have hard time hitting anything with the first few dozen up to a hundred shots. Mostly it is a question of shooting too early, having hard time understanding the sight picture, pulling trigger too hard or similar things and some people just get frustrated from such and thus take longer to adjust. They can eventually learn to overcome such things though.

About 1/3 start to hit reasonably after few shots. That is once they are no longer "surprised" by the gun, something that tends to happen to anyone the first few shots. And then there was the one who had never shot before and shot 5 shots in a 5cm group at 10 meters as first shots ever...

But then to the actual test you did and modifiers:
In reality at least the need to know exact range depends on the drop of the weapon in question and thus at short ranges is more important for something thrown that thus arcs quite a lot.
For a 9mm pistol the difference in drop is negligible at that short ranges. In fact out to about 30-40 meters most shooters do not have to factor it in as the difference is so much smaller than the group size. So if a target is at 10 yards or 20 it does not matter unless doing professional level shooting. But the same 10 yards is a huge difference at 100 yards, difference between say 90 and 100 meters might be 7-8 cm drop.
So basically I find the range finding rules in tactical shooting a too much of generalization for closer ranges and even on longer ranges the requirements for getting +3 or +1 are kind of silly. Basically a +1 means you hit at 1.5 times the range and +3 you hit at 3 times the range, to have a drop of 2 times if the target moves few feet...

So my guess at modifiers:
9-4=5 base skill.
Likely +3/no risk/stake in thing total as you do not seem to fall into the first group that would perceive it a risk to self/others. Or the second group that places too high stake on it.
Likely +3 for range, and definitely at least the +1 by the rules(see my rant above)
likely +2 or +3 for the conditions as you would not have the wind, variable lighting and such of the +1 outdoor range, but you did not have the perfect range +4 either due to the light.
You likely braced the gun in 2 hands: +1
Acc +2 for the glock.
All out attack +1
Most people do take the extra aim time when on the range even if they do not think about it, so +1 or +2.

Thus the total without target size/range would come to: 16-20
Range: 15 =-5
Size of target: If you had a 8-12cm diameter target that would be the -5 (>3 inch sphere): -5
So skill 6-10: resulting in really none to half the shots hitting that size target, but most people use larger target sizes, like the 30cm diameter targets I tend to use for first time shooters(-3): such would give skill 8-12 and the upper range would thus well correspond to your experience.

So back to reality in my experience:
I tend to have people shoot the first shots at about 10 meters at a target with 30cm "black zone", giving 4 range penalty and -3 size penalty in Gurps terms. And most people tend to hit with most of the shots on the black after their individual adjustment period (few shots for group 3, more shots but still usually achievable in one or two sessions for second group).

As a side note: Rifle shooting seems to be slightly easier to grasp for people and the difference in early hitting probabilities is higher than the 3 higher accuracy bonus, with the hit probabilities at the 50m range on slightly bigger(40cm) targets tending to be higher, despite nominally being the same difficulty(3 higher acc +1 larger target, -4 more range).
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Old 02-24-2016, 07:03 AM   #12
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Default Re: Reality-testing / Playtesting the Guns Default . . .

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
...
The 200 points is only a balancing factor for the mechanism where characters trade in their free time for extra skill points...

Well yes but that is what we're talking about isn't it? i.e we're not talking about earning and spending CP from adventuring?

Well unless there's something you're not telling us Vicky!? ;-)

I'll be honest, it's not really been a part of the book I've ever bothered with following that closely, I tend to just go with what make sense to me and the setting.

Last edited by Tomsdad; 02-24-2016 at 11:59 PM.
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Old 02-24-2016, 07:06 AM   #13
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Default Re: Reality-testing / Playtesting the Guns Default . . .

Look, the 200-hour figure needn't be taken with that amount of precision. The point is that I didn't have prior gun training, and had very little gun-like practice (surely not enough even for one point in Gun Sport).
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Old 02-24-2016, 08:09 AM   #14
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Default Re: Reality-testing / Playtesting the Guns Default . . .

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Look, the 200-hour figure needn't be taken with that amount of precision. The point is that I didn't have prior gun training, and had very little gun-like practice (surely not enough even for one point in Gun Sport).
There are plenty of reasons to assume that Guns skill is easy enough to learn that 200 hours per point is wildly overestimating the time for most people.

200 hours per point in the skill is an average for all skills. Nuclear Physics probably goes slower, as I doubt that it's common for people to gain 12 points in it and becoming a professional nuclear phycicist by studying really hard for a year. Guns is learned much faster, especially the first few points.

When on a gun range in New Hampshire, I had to hire an instructor in order to shoot the guns I wanted, because of their own rules that no one without a licence shoot unaccompanied. He was a serviceman and his military job was pistol instructor.

After I had shot the first five shots, he said that he was glad I knew how to shoot, now we could focus on tactical exercises. Some people are difficult to train, because they have bad habits or are afraid of the gun. Some people need a few hours to learn. And some people can shoot real guns the same way they shoot toy guns, paintball guns and air guns, because at a firing range, at short range, a real gun is, if anything, only easier to use.

I learned rapid target acquisition from rest, using cover, rapid reload, failure-to-stop drill and immediate action drill, but I didn't really have to learn how to point the gun at a target within 20 yards and hit.

Getting military recruits to Guns -12 takes surprisingly little time and effort. It's getting them to shed some of the less desirable Disadvantages, pick up a few of the more sought-after and get skill in Soldier and associated skills that takes most of the time.
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Old 02-24-2016, 08:23 AM   #15
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Default Re: Reality-testing / Playtesting the Guns Default . . .

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There are plenty of reasons to assume that Guns skill is easy enough to learn that 200 hours per point is wildly overestimating the time for most people.
Maybe. But if you take it to the opposite extreme, postulating that a person who picks up a non-Art, non-Sports pistol for the first time in one's life is supposed to have a skill at DX, you have pretty much stepped into a system that is nothing like the way GURPS Defaults works (and the intent was to reality-test the latter).
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Old 02-24-2016, 08:35 AM   #16
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Default Re: Reality-testing / Playtesting the Guns Default . . .

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
There are plenty of reasons to assume that Guns skill is easy enough to learn that 200 hours per point is wildly overestimating the time for most people.

200 hours per point in the skill is an average for all skills. Nuclear Physics probably goes slower, as I doubt that it's common for people to gain 12 points in it and becoming a professional nuclear phycicist by studying really hard for a year. Guns is learned much faster, especially the first few points.
This is precisely why Guns is an easy skill while Physics is a very hard one. For someone with 10 in all attributes.
  • Guns (E) DX+0 [1]- 10 (50% chance to succeed an average task)
  • Physics (VH) IQ-3 [1]- 7 (16% chance to succeed an average task)
Having said that, I still perfectly understand what you mean and do agree with you. Learning is not something that follow a linear progression and it sounds that, realistically, the first step should not always cost 200 hours of learning with a master (or 400 alone).
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Old 02-24-2016, 08:50 AM   #17
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Default Re: Reality-testing / Playtesting the Guns Default . . .

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Maybe. But if you take it to the opposite extreme, postulating that a person who picks up a non-Art, non-Sports pistol for the first time in one's life is supposed to have a skill at DX, you have pretty much stepped into a system that is nothing like the way GURPS Defaults works (and the intent was to reality-test the latter).
Performing a simple task like shooting at a firing range at DX after having learnt the basics of how a gun works* is not the same as being able to use it in a real firefight at full DX or IQ.

On the other hand, a lot of police departments spend much less than 200 hours on training officers to use firearms. I don't have a problem with saying that 1-2 point in Guns (Pistol) can easily result from a lifetime of familiarising through media, several serious lectures on how real guns work, as opposed to fake ones, and a day or two at a firing range.

Actually, a lot of combat skills in GURPS are more about attitude than anything else. The mechanics of Brawling, Knife or Guns aren't complex. The reason most people are bad at violence is that they don't know how to deal with adrenaline, fear, rage and the mental block against hurting others that most civilised people seem to have. GURPS treats these as physical skills, but in reality, a lot of taks that fall under them depend on being mentally able and willing.

A person with a sensible attitude toward weapon safety and a pragmatic ability to hurt others when necessary will probably not require all that many shooting lessons and self-defence courses before he can function at DX to DX+2 with a wide range of weapons, as well as Brawling and simple grappling moves. It costs a lot of points in GURPS, but it's not really realistic to have it take a long time.

*However that was done. Compared to many people throughout history, modern boys who consume Western media and play with toy guns know an astonishing amount about military weapons and have plenty of experience in pointing guns.
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Old 02-24-2016, 08:59 AM   #18
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Default Re: Reality-testing / Playtesting the Guns Default . . .

I may, or may not, have any points in any gun skill, but a couple examples

Firing my Remington 700, in .270 at a broad daylight target at a known 200yd range with rifle adjusted to be 2in low at 200yds, rifle strapped into cradle strapped to table, bullets generally within 1in of target

Firing rifle while sitting and using sandbags atop table, slightly worse but very similar

Firing same rifle, standing, off hand at 50yd target using the backup iron sights . . . bullets scattered over target within about 18 inches of each other

Firing academy issue AR15 in broad daylight at known 70yd distance man sized target, rifle zeroed at 70yds, firing off hand standing . . . 7 rounds scattered all over target, 3 misses

The combination of scopes and sandbags are basically cheat codes for rifles . . . when I am hunting I sadly don't use sandbags, but I won't shoot unless I have some manner of an appropriate rest for the rifle, such as a convenient tree limb or firing prone where the ground itself can provide support for the arm

Carefully setting your sandbags up and getting them all situated is not a super fast thing though
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Old 02-24-2016, 09:02 AM   #19
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Default Re: Reality-testing / Playtesting the Guns Default . . .

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Look, the 200-hour figure needn't be taken with that amount of precision. The point is that I didn't have prior gun training, and had very little gun-like practice (surely not enough even for one point in Gun Sport).
No I know, in fact I was saying it shouldn't really be ;-)
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Old 02-24-2016, 09:05 AM   #20
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Default Re: Reality-testing / Playtesting the Guns Default . . .

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
On the other hand, a lot of police departments spend much less than 200 hours on training officers to use firearms. I don't have a problem with saying that 1-2 point in Guns (Pistol) can easily result from a lifetime of familiarising through media, several serious lectures on how real guns work, as opposed to fake ones, and a day or two at a firing range.
But I don't think this is what our reality test was, is it?
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