Katana reaches, swing vx thrust

zarnick · 12-06-2006, 11:08 AM

Hi, on the last session, one of my players wanted to buy a Katana, so he bought it, and when putting down the stats, we've noticed something that didn't quite made much sense(or at least, none of us could find it). Why swinging with a Katana have a reach of 1,2 when trhusthing with it, have the reach 1?
Shouldn't all of both stat's be 1,2?

Thanks for clarifying thath.

PK · 12-06-2006, 01:16 PM

I can't speak for the katana itself (I am not an expert on it), but several weapons in GURPS have different reaches in different modes. The reason is generally that a given form of attack is only practical at a certain range. Look through the weapons tables for other examples.

Ragabash Moon · 12-06-2006, 02:48 PM

Hmm.. I do see where that can make you go "Huh?"... Took me a minute to thing about it but, if you are slashing at someone, you can hit them with any point along the blade... However, if you are stabbing someone that is at reach of 2... well, the tip will just nick them... you need to be at range 1 and put the sword INSIDE their body...

Does that make the reach difference make sense?

benz72 · 12-06-2006, 02:54 PM

I do not use a katana either (preferring bastard sword) but if we compare the wikipedia entries for the two weapons
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katana
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastard_sword
we find 4 salient differences:
1) bastard swords are (typically) about 10% longer (~110 cm vs ~100 cm)
2) ratio of blade length to grip length is higher for the bastard sword
3) curvature in the katana blade ~10 degrees shortens reach to cos10*(bladelength) = 98% (this is negligable at our scale)
4) single edge vs. double edge

Note that the bastard sword description on pg 207 (3rd ed) gives the thrusting range as 2 (only)

Both of these weapons clearly ride the edge of the 1,2 range. With a slightly shorter blade and a lower blade/grip ratio I can easily justify katana thrusts having less range than longsword thrusts. That being said, those thrusts will be much more stable and have a quicker recovery.
If it were my game I would allow a katana to thrust to reach 2, but would declare that if a fighter did so his weapon would become unready (as it is out of position). For fairness one might also state that a bastard sword used to thrust to reach 2 becomes unready (perhaps only if you miss, since this is more in line with it's design) but allow a reach 1 thrust at a penalty (perhaps -2) to attack.

Just my unsolicited $0.02

GoblynByte · 12-06-2006, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zarnick

Hi, on the last session, one of my players wanted to buy a Katana, so he bought it, and when putting down the stats, we've noticed something that didn't quite made much sense(or at least, none of us could find it). Why swinging with a Katana have a reach of 1,2 when trhusthing with it, have the reach 1?
Shouldn't all of both stat's be 1,2?

Thanks for clarifying thath.

Ah! Another Katana thread! Quick! Hit it with a stick! Kill it, kill it! Before it gets too big! Ahhhh!!!

(Please understand I'm just jesting...please continue the conversation...just felt like being a goof-ball for a second). ;)

Blood Legend · 12-07-2006, 02:18 AM

o_O I never like seeing Katana threads...I've only ever seen two in my life but I can still FEEL the history in the Katananess..

Can some higher-level nerd explain me the intricate doomness that the word 'katana' (ow!) brings to a thread? What IS the katana debate? Why does it cause turmoil o_O

Blood Legend · 12-07-2006, 02:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoblynByte

(Please understand I'm just jesting...please continue the conversation...just felt like being a goof-ball for a second). ;)

Jokes are funnier if you dont tell them its a joke >:3

Anders · 12-07-2006, 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blood Legend

Can some higher-level nerd explain me the intricate doomness that the word 'katana' (ow!) brings to a thread? What IS the katana debate? Why does it cause turmoil o_O

As far as I understand, Katanas are either the best swords ever made - or rather average swords made from crappy ore. Since both sides of the dispute tends to get rather... emotional about their viewpoints, Katana threads tend to go up in flames sooner than you can say "folded 19 000 times".

rosignol · 12-07-2006, 04:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blood Legend

o_O I never like seeing Katana threads...I've only ever seen two in my life but I can still FEEL the history in the Katananess..

Can some higher-level nerd explain me the intricate doomness that the word 'katana' (ow!) brings to a thread? What IS the katana debate? Why does it cause turmoil o_O

I think it comes from watching a lot of kung-fu theatre on saturday afternoons (instead of gaming like a normal geek) and having an oddly exaggerated impression of what it was and what it was capable of as a result.

Damned if I know what the Lakota have to do with katanas, tho. Must be an in-joke specific to this forum.

HeroPenguin · 12-07-2006, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blood Legend

o_O I never like seeing Katana threads...I've only ever seen two in my life but I can still FEEL the history in the Katananess..

Can some higher-level nerd explain me the intricate doomness that the word 'katana' (ow!) brings to a thread? What IS the katana debate? Why does it cause turmoil o_O

Simply put, katanas tend to be touted as an übersword by many geeks and simpletons. Truth be told, it's not far from the mark. Katanas have, like many things from Japan, a history of quality, for the most part. It makes sense, considering that as an island nation, their resources were limited, which developed the culture into an anti-waste mindset. Or at least, that's how I've heard it explained.

However, the ugliness comes from two equal parts. First, the Japanophile's staunch denial that anything could possibly compare to the katana in any respect. Cutting edge, speed, form, strength, durability, flexibility, weight, anything. The fault here is obvious; nothing can be the best at everything at once. Natural order winds up sacrificing one aspect for another and it's just a fact of life. This oddly enough can get ignored. Sensible people argue against these claims (or shake their head in disgust and walk away), but as we all know, just because one side is wrong doesn't mean the other side is right.

The second part to the argument apart from the sensible people are the anti-japs. Often they come in the form of Euro-pride people who are either bitter at Japan's constant praise and the shunting off of European martial arts and crafts (HAH), or simply just the European equivalent to the Japanophile. However, they can just as easily be just plain old vanilla anti-jap, and resent the Japanese for whatever reason, and argue against the katana's superiority whether or not they have any ground.

Combine those two parts to the general use of the katana in media, japanese and american and many others alike, AS an übersword, and the pain quickly becomes compounded as the issue is contested again and again. Gross.

12-06-2006, 11:08 AM	#1
zarnick Join Date: May 2006 Location: Markastum	Katana reaches, swing vx thrust Hi, on the last session, one of my players wanted to buy a Katana, so he bought it, and when putting down the stats, we've noticed something that didn't quite made much sense(or at least, none of us could find it). Why swinging with a Katana have a reach of 1,2 when trhusthing with it, have the reach 1? Shouldn't all of both stat's be 1,2? Thanks for clarifying thath. __________________ Do as you must, just let me have my sword, and stay away.

12-06-2006, 01:16 PM	#2
PK Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Dobbstown Sane Asylum	Re: Katana reaches, swing vx thrust I can't speak for the katana itself (I am not an expert on it), but several weapons in GURPS have different reaches in different modes. The reason is generally that a given form of attack is only practical at a certain range. Look through the weapons tables for other examples. __________________ Reverend Pee Kitty of the Order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Twitter) (LJ) MyGURPS: My house rules and *GURPS* resources. #SJGamesLive: I answered questions about *GURPS After the End* and more! {Watch Video} - {Read Transcript}

12-06-2006, 02:48 PM	#3
Ragabash Moon Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Topeka, Kansas	Re: Katana reaches, swing vx thrust Hmm.. I do see where that can make you go "Huh?"... Took me a minute to thing about it but, if you are slashing at someone, you can hit them with any point along the blade... However, if you are stabbing someone that is at reach of 2... well, the tip will just nick them... you need to be at range 1 and put the sword INSIDE their body... Does that make the reach difference make sense? __________________ Cleopatra: Whenever she assigned me to the switch, was that Voice, or was Raina influencing her thinking? Because, I mean, if it was Raina, she got inside my head and decided that I would screw it up.

12-06-2006, 02:54 PM	#4
benz72 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Chagrin Falls	Re: Katana reaches, swing vx thrust I do not use a katana either (preferring bastard sword) but if we compare the wikipedia entries for the two weapons http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katana http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastard_sword we find 4 salient differences: 1) bastard swords are (typically) about 10% longer (~110 cm vs ~100 cm) 2) ratio of blade length to grip length is higher for the bastard sword 3) curvature in the katana blade ~10 degrees shortens reach to cos10(bladelength) = 98% (this is negligable at our scale) 4) single edge vs. double edge Note that the bastard sword description on pg 207 (3rd ed) gives the thrusting range as 2 (only) Both of these weapons clearly ride the edge of the 1,2 range. With a slightly shorter blade and a lower blade/grip ratio I can easily justify katana thrusts having less range than longsword thrusts. That being said, those thrusts will be much more stable and have a quicker recovery. If it were my game I would allow a katana to thrust to reach 2, but would declare that if a fighter did so his weapon would become unready (as it is out of position). For fairness one might also state that a bastard sword used to thrust to reach 2 becomes unready (perhaps only if you miss, since this is more in line with it's design) but allow a reach 1 thrust at a penalty (perhaps -2) to attack. Just my unsolicited $0.02 __________________ Ben*undefined Life has a funny way of making sure you decide to leave the party just a few minutes too late to avoid trouble.

12-07-2006, 02:18 AM	#6
Blood Legend Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: The Fine Line Between Black and White	Re: Katana reaches, swing vx thrust o_O I never like seeing Katana threads...I've only ever seen two in my life but I can still FEEL the history in the Katananess.. Can some higher-level nerd explain me the intricate doomness that the word 'katana' (ow!) brings to a thread? What IS the katana debate? Why does it cause turmoil o_O __________________ . ( )( ) -This is The Overlord Bunny o(O.o)o -Master of Bunnies O('')('') -And Destroyer of the Hasenpfeffer "This is the sort of relatively small error that destroys planetary probes." ~Bruno