Star Trek Campaigns: Prime Directive vs GURPS Space/Spaceships/Psionics 4e

[Flyndaran]

They were able to replicate every aspect of a historical period from truly insufficient material. They had more than just insane ingenuity if assuming a semi-realistic setting.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

They were able to replicate every aspect of a historical period from truly insufficient material. They had more than just insane ingenuity if assuming a semi-realistic setting.

Depends on how detailed Chicago Mobs of the Twenties and the "text books on how to make radio sets and stuff like that" the Horizon left behind were.

From what we see Chicago Mobs of the Twenties is an insanely large and thick book (on par with my late mother's copy of the King James Bible which makes sense based on how Mccoy thinks the Iotians treat it) with normal sized text based on the single page we see when Spock opens it.

SPOCK: They evidently seized upon that one book as the blueprint for an entire society.
MCCOY: It's the Bible.

Interestingly the copy Oxmyx has was published 1992 which leave two possibilities. 1) the crew of the Horizon c 2107 gave the Iotians a book that was a literal antique. or 2) the publishing date is derived from the 1920s the book describes. The episode leans toward the later as "This society must become united or it will degenerate into total anarchy." which would mean the Iotians at best reached 1920s TL6 some 60 years ago and promptly went into total Safe-tech mode.

I should note that the speed with which a culture can progress in TL with direct interference in Star Trek is insanely fast per "Patterns of Force" as Gill was a historian not an engineer and yet he was able to leapfrog their tech by "generations".

[Astromancer]

On the technological progress front, if you already have the blueprints and know precisely what you want, it goes faster. It took me forever to find this one little comics and games shop the first time. But once I knew where it was, I could pop by at will no trouble.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

On the technological progress front, if you already have the blueprints and know precisely what you want, it goes faster. It took me forever to find this one little comics and games shop the first time. But once I knew where it was, I could pop by at will no trouble.

Which is my whole point regarding the transtator.

To go from "The beginnings of industrialisation" (ie early TL5) to 1920s TL6 the Iotians had text books describing how to build that equipment. This time around all the Iotians have is one piece of equipment they must take apart without destroying it (-15 to skill), learn how it works (-15 to skill), and then replicate it (-15 skill given this time they have no real road map)

Unless we assume the setting has wildcard skills (which per Prime Directive it doesn't) the maximum ETL of most TOS Federation equipment is 9. This is supported by pulling out Ultra-Tech and looking up the non superscience tech that appears in TOS:

* Hibernation Chamber: ("Space Seed") TL9; and that appeared in their 1990s
* Pneumohypo: (throughout the TOS era) TL9
* Diagnostic Bed: (throughout the TOS era): TL9
* Androids: ("What are Little Girls Made of?"; "I, Mudd"; "Return to Tomorrow") TL9; by cultures more advanced' then the Federation.
* Brainscanner: (throughout the TOS era: TL9

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by maximara

* Androids: ("What are Little Girls Made of?"; "I, Mudd"; "Return to Tomorrow") TL9; by cultures more advanced' then the Federation.

IQ 10 androids with Volitional AIs and standard brains are TL10. Data has to be a TL12 Android with a Genius brain. Note the lack of supersciecne though.

Also, UT makes non-destructive uploading a TL10 technology to even get a low-res result. This might describe what Dr. Daystrom did when he gave the M-5 computer his "engrams". Again no supersince markings.

The non-destructive uploads seen in "What are Little Girls made of?" exceed UT's TL11 version in speed. Still no superscience.

You can't just jam everything into TL9 by abusing the superscience rules.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

IQ 10 androids with Volitional AIs and standard brains are TL10. Data has to be a TL12 Android with a Genius brain. Note the lack of supersciecne though.

TNG. Irrelevant to Prime Directive which is set in a different (and defunk with TNG) canon as noted in previous posts.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Also, UT makes non-destructive uploading a TL10 technology to even get a low-res result. This might describe what Dr. Daystrom did when he gave the M-5 computer his "engrams". Again no supersince markings..

Daystrom's M-5 was the 5th in line of prototypes and it didn't really duplicate his mind; it used his engrams which seems to be a technique that he and he alone was able to do:

DAYSTROM: Exactly. I've developed a method of impressing human engrams upon the computer circuits. The relays are not unlike the synapse of the brain. M-5 thinks, Captain.

At best Daystrom tried to go for TL10. Out right failed four times and the fifth time resulted in a lot of people getting killed. The fact we don't ever see something like M-5 produced by the Federation even in the TNG era despite the holodeck malfunction/programing screw up of the week showing that it is possible to do it shows they went safe-tech with that particular innovation.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

The non-destructive uploads seen in "What are Little Girls made of?" exceed UT's TL11 version in speed. Still no superscience.

What part of "by cultures more advanced then the Federation" did you not understand? Heck, the Federation don't seem to have that tech in the TNG era except for effort experiment that doesn't work as intended,

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

You can't just jam everything into TL9 by abusing the superscience rules.

And you can't assume that just because the Federation is sitting at TL9 that everybody else is as well.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by maximara

And you can't assume that just because the Federation is sitting at TL9 that everybody else is as well.

I don't assume that the Federation in TOS is TL9 eith or without ^. I see multiple indicators that it is sitting between TL11^ and TL12^

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by maximara

What part of "by cultures more advanced then the Federation" did you not understand? Heck, the Federation don't seem to have that tech in the TNG era except for effort experiment that doesn't work as intended,
.

There are no cultures more advanced (at least not technologically) than the Federation in your presentation of things because technological advancement ends at TL 9. If it did not then the Federation's antimatter power plants, robofactories, and laser pistols would all put it higher than TL 9

[doctorevilbrain]

I doubt they have Robofactories. They're Phaser pistols, not Laser pistols.

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by doctorevilbrain

I doubt they have Robofactories. They're Phaser pistols, not Laser pistols.

They have laser pistols in the first pilot.

EDIT: Kirk was making a joke. Maximara, why are you taking a joke so seriously? Without taking a joke seriously, there is no need for Federation tech in TOS to be ETL9^ rather than ETL10^ or ETL11^.