What is 4E Luck specifically *not* allowed to affect?

[Jasonft]

Over in this thread there is an ongoing discussion of Luck as it applies to spellcasting, and there seems to be some debate on the matter:

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=89265

In a Supers game soon to start (4E rules) I am going to be playing a person with absurd levels of Luck (Ridiculous and Super, both usable on others) so I feel I should ask -

Under current 4E rules, stating book/page numbers for ease of reference if possible, and understanding the GM in question might have his own rules, what is Luck the Advantage (in either form) specifically barred from influencing?

Ceremonial magic is confirmed by Kromm in that other thread as being banned. What about normal casting? You can obviously cause a critical hit or a botch, but can you affect things like the fumble table? Gadgeteering rolls seem to be allowed, but what about things like construction time or the quirks you get for it being a prototype? Just about any roll involving a Contact or an Ally seems to be asking for trouble if you have luck...

You get the idea. Any help would be appreciated. Note: Serendipity (which I also will have) would seem to allow a one time special result for just about anything but that's effectively GM fiat and thus not what I am looking for.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Jasonft

Ceremonial magic is confirmed by Kromm in that other thread as being banned.

Is that in one of the rule books?

If not, Kromm can't just ban it in a forum post.

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Is that in one of the rule books?

GURPS Magic, p. 12.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Is that in one of the rule books?

The Ceremonial Magic inset, on page 12 of Magic.

Edit: Lone ninjas are always trouble :p :)

[aesir23]

To the best of my knowledge, you can use luck on ANY roll you are making for your character. Additionally, you can use it on any attack roll against your character and similar "direct effects," like spells targeted at you (but not area affects).

If you buy the Wishing enhancement (which I assume is what you mean by "usable on others"), you can use Luck on ANY roll that represents something happening in your character's presence.

That is all.

I don't own GURPS Magic, but I suspect from reading Kromm's posts that the Cermonial Magic ban is a unique circumstance.

[Ts_]

Originally Posted by Jasonft

can you affect things like the fumble table?

The answer seen on this forum was (paraphrased) "No, because the table is a way to help the GM come up with something bad. The GM can freely ignore the table and make you suffer with some brand-new idea. Your Luck couldn't force the GM to come up with something less bad."

That's the reasoning for all kinds of random-results tables. Even for reactions, imho, because reactions are certainly within the limit of what the GM gets to decide.

Regards
Ts

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by Jasonft

You can obviously cause a critical hit or a botch, but can you affect things like the fumble table?

No. The critical failure (and success) tables are there as an option for the GM; he can choose to not roll on them and make up an appropriate result instead. Dictating a critical table result is thus the equivalent of telling the GM what to do, which Luck doesn't allow you to do.

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by Ts_

That's the reasoning for all kinds of random-results tables. Even for reactions, imho, because reactions are certainly within the limit of what the GM gets to decide.

Reaction rolls are explicitly allowed to be affected by Luck in the text. I can see the GM overriding this in some circumstances - the mega-Villian isn't going to react well to you no matter how lucky you are, and asking the princess to jump in bed with you the first time you meet her isn't likely to get Joe Schmoe a good result no matter how lucky you are - but most reaction rolls can be affected with luck. The key, I think, is whether the GM would have been making a reaction roll in the first place; if he normally might make a roll then Luck should affect the roll; if the result is either so outrageous or was going to be predetermined by the GM's plot plans then Luck can't change that.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by Ts_

The answer seen on this forum was (paraphrased) "No, because the table is a way to help the GM come up with something bad. The GM can freely ignore the table and make you suffer with some brand-new idea. Your Luck couldn't force the GM to come up with something less bad."

Meh. Personally I allow it if you have Wishing and want to make sure that an enemy gets a particularly heinous result.

There's absolutely no reason for a PC to waste a luck usage on the critical failure table instead of simple rerolling the failure in the first place. It's literally never come up, and the odds that Luck will recharge in the precise moment that you roll a critical failure and roll on the critical failure table seems astronomically unlikely.

I absolutely allow Luck to be used on the critical success table to try and get a better result, I don't see why I'd ban the opposite.

At any rate, there doesn't seem to be any RAW rule against using luck on random result tables.

Originally Posted by Ts_

That's the reasoning for all kinds of random-results tables. Even for reactions, imho, because reactions are certainly within the limit of what the GM gets to decide.

This ruling makes a character who is lucky in social situations completely impossible.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by aesir23

This ruling makes a character who is lucky in social situations completely impossible.

Either get Charisma, if you feel like gambling on reaction rolls, or Mind Control if you want to short circuit them with powers. Luck is not Mind Control, and reaction bonuses are not Mind Control. (or use a social skill and use Luck on it to roll well, or use Wishing to get the other guy to fail his will roll to resist)

Note that flat reaction bonuses are subject to the same restriction - the GM doesn't ever have to roll reactions, and when he chooses to roll reactions PC behavior can legitimately generate very large reaction penalties, while NPCs may come with bad attitudes (Intolerance, Loner, Bad Temper, etc) which gives that NPC a permanent reaction penalty which stacks with situational penalties for bad behavior.

Reaction bonuses and reaction rolls are not Mind Control.