[Basic] Disadvantage of the Week: Honesty

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

What you see as a problem is something I see as a lack of problem. It is not a problem that people respond within the limits of their knowledge. In fact it makes Honesty a lot more playable.

Lack of Cultural Familiarity or low IQ shouldn't make Disadvantages less restrictive.

If a character thinks he has Honesty, but due to his complete lack of knowledge about the way laws work, actually believes he acting legally while performing all kinds of action-adventure, PC/protagonist shenanigans, the character doesn't really have Honesty. He has a Quirk 'Believes he is Honest'.

[Flyndaran]

Why would anyone think that Honesty comes with psychic powers or encyclopedic knowledge of all local laws?
Of course I can see a player trying to game it with a purposefully ignorant character for more plausible deniability.

Edit: I did write this before Icelander's post.

I don't think I'd go quite that far. A player would still make their character try to keep up on local laws, or at least rely on someone with more knowledge.

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

What you see as a problem is something I see as a lack of problem. It is not a problem that people respond within the limits of their knowledge. In fact it makes Honesty a lot more playable.

Here are three problems:

1) There is no explicit reference in the text for applying knowledge or lack thereof.

2) In an RPG there is the knowledge a player has, the knowledge a GM has, the knowledge a character might have, and the knowledge a GM and player each might think a character might be presumed have.

3) If lack of knowledge excuses the character from the implications of Honesty, then an ignorant character is less impacted by the disad. When coupled with the reputation bonus, the result is Honest oafs who eat farmer's crops they 'find' growing the field are more well regarded than non-Honest genteel types who don't.

Originally Posted by malloyd

The problem is that what the text says is fundamentally self contradictory. ...

I agree with your post in toto. It would be far better to use other more nuanced disadvantages like Compulsion, Vow, or Code of Honor to go for the kind of effects Honesty is about.

But I would add that the problem is not confined to the awkward write up. There is a conceptual problem with what the trait is attempting to do.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Lack of Cultural Familiarity or low IQ shouldn't make Disadvantages less restrictive.

Low IQ isn't relevant. Lack of cultural familiarity is, but doesn't matter that much because it's actually more restrictive to have to abide by your native law set as well as well as a local one that adds new laws to worry about. The intent of Honesty is that you are a guy who isn't a murder hobo. You don't murder, steal, vandalize, and when someone tells you what the relevant regulations are it has to be a matter of life and death for you to break them. The intent is not that you will be a useless paralytic.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Why would anyone think that Honesty comes with psychic powers or encyclopedic knowledge of all local laws?
Of course I can see a player trying to game it with a purposefully ignorant character for more plausible deniability.

Edit: I did write this before Icelander's post.

I don't think I'd go quite that far. A player would still make their character try to keep up on local laws, or at least rely on someone with more knowledge.

As it is presumably important to a character with Honesty that he doesn't break the law out of ignorance, good roleplaying would demand that the character made an effort to stay aware of all laws that might apply to him and in any case where there was the slightest room for doubt, that he would seek out information and even ask the auhorities for guidance before taking any legally doubtful action.

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by Icelander

As it is presumably important to a character with Honesty that he doesn't break the law out of ignorance, good roleplaying would demand that the character made an effort to stay aware of all laws that might apply to him and in any case where there was the slightest room for doubt, that he would seek out information and even ask the auhorities for guidance before taking any legally doubtful action.

Yes. And that is likely to impose a realism problem (characters who should not be expected to have even the werewithal to address their lack of information) and implementation problem (uninformed players/GMs).

[Brandy]

Originally Posted by Icelander

...good roleplaying would demand that the character made an effort to stay aware of all laws that might apply to him and in any case where there was the slightest room for doubt, that he would seek out information and even ask the auhorities for guidance before taking any legally doubtful action.

I wouldn't handle Honesty this way in the games that I run.

For example, if an honest character is driving on a two-lane highway without a marked speed limit and no other cars around, I wouldn't think it bad roleplaying for the character to assume "roads of this type usually have a speed limit of 50 or 55 miles per hour, so I'll drive that speed". It seems unreasonable and more importantly doesn't sound like much fun. Honestly is a -10 point self-imposed mental disadvantage, and the way some of you are interpreting it doesn't seem reasonable given that.

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by Brandy

I wouldn't handle Honesty this way in the games that I run.

For example, if an honest character is driving on a two-lane highway without a marked speed limit and no other cars around, I wouldn't think it bad roleplaying for the character to assume "roads of this type usually have a speed limit of 50 or 55 miles per hour, so I'll drive that speed". It seems unreasonable and more importantly doesn't sound like much fun. Honestly is a -10 point self-imposed mental disadvantage, and the way some of you are interpreting it doesn't seem reasonable given that.

I don't understand the basis for the assumption, nor how the Honest character making that assumption decides between 50 or 55. Wouldn't she be more certain of staying within the law by driving at 40?

But on the pricing, I agree in a sense -- [-10] is not enough for the problems it will impose as written.

[Culture20]

Originally Posted by Harald387

Standard afflictions cannot inflict self-imposed mental disadvantages (B36). This includes Honesty, among others (B121).

Read Mind Control: Conditioning +50% Basic 69.

[Dalin]

Originally Posted by Icelander

As it is presumably important to a character with Honesty that he doesn't break the law out of ignorance, good roleplaying would demand that the character made an effort to stay aware of all laws that might apply to him and in any case where there was the slightest room for doubt, that he would seek out information and even ask the auhorities for guidance before taking any legally doubtful action.

I agree that the character would likely make a reasonable effort, but your description seems to push it into Fanaticism territory. In the many games I've seen where Honesty was present, it hasn't been reserved for obsessive lawyers who spend much of their time double-checking their legal status in every conceivable way. It's for people who support the rule of law, try to abide by laws, try to get their friends and colleagues to be similarly upstanding, and attempt to make amends when they make mistakes (whether wilfully or not).