Improved Melee Defaults for Skilled Combatants

[finn]

JulianLW, I honestly think your proposal is fine. What you want to do is clear, it is at least as realistic as how GURPS handles it, and does not seem over-powered. So, if it suits the feel you want in your game, why not?

The only tweak I would make is to limit the bonus to +3. This will give DX-1 for Easy, DX-2 for Average, and DX-3 for Hard skills. It will be on par with the improved defaults given to Weapon Masters, and will avoid introducing additional calculation caused by raising skills from defaults.

[Þorkell]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

As everything but Knife is Average

I think you're forgetting Flail and Kusari, both Hard.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Anders

Great minds think alike, I suppose. I designed a complex, three-tiered system and discovered that I could get the exact same result by letting all weapons default to each other.

I do think that if you do this, you should have a cap on how good you can get from defaults. Something like the "rule of 20" for skills. (I think "rule of 20" should apply to all skills, actually).

yes, I don't know of anyone with experience at arms who thinks that the few defaults between weapon skills in GURPS is realistic (and it sure is not fun!) Reducing the number of skills would also help. I would make say Sword default to Knife-4 (same hands, same balance, different size), Axe/Mace-4 (same hands, different balance), Staff-5 (different hands), and Polearm-6 (different hands, different balance) [which would subsume Two-Handed Axe/Mace]

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Þorkell

I think you're forgetting Flail and Kusari, both Hard.

No, there was an "or higher" that got left out.

[Edges]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Just spitballing here, but what if you lump all the melee/unarmed combat skills into a single VH skill, then allow buying up what were previously individual skills as Average Techniques, up to +4 over Melee Combat (or whatever you name the single skill)? You might be able to boost this to +8 with a Technique Mastery Perk, if you really need someone who's emphatically a sword-master or whatever. Note that, due to the fact it's rarely worth the points to buy 3 Techniques for the same skill (and almost never worth it to buy 4 or more, unless you can reliably stack them), you'll probably end up with characters with only one or two favored weapon types... but that's already pretty common.

I was going to suggest something like this too.

One thing I've always found a bit odd about GURPS was the abundance of melee weapon skills. Think of all the different things that gymnasts, acrobats, cheerleaders, various circus workers, etc., do that are all covered by the Acrobatics skill. Yet Knife and Short Sword are two different skills? If anything, it would be more realistic for there to be one melee weapon skill and a few acrobatics skills.

I get that most table-top RPGs focus more on combat than on other activities. But dammit, there's a "U" in GURPS! :D

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Edges

I was going to suggest something like this too.

If you are going to collapse them just to collapse them, and not because you want vastly cheaper or something, consider just using the existing Wildcard skill rules. Yeah the "official" ones for melee weapons are almost uselessly narrow for their costs, but there's no particular reason you couldn't allow Melee!, or Fight!, especially if you use the straight interpretation of the Basic Set rules that just amounts all the included skills with no special additional benefits. Yeah 24 points for everything at DX seems kind of on the high side for the initial buy in, but not all that bad, and 12 per additional level (i.e. the cost to improve just 3 skills) is actually pretty fair. If you really have a problem with the base cost (and honestly if you are comparing it to those same 3 skills at DX for 6 points, 24 points is pretty high), it's not too tough to include enough additional stuff like techniques at full DX, or perks (normally specialized by skill but here applying to everything included) to bring the value up. Armed Grapple, Cavalry Training, Close Combat, Fast Draw, Reverse Grip and Sweep at full skill, plus Form Mastery, Grip Mastery, Reach Mastery, Reverse Grip, Off Hand Weapon Training and Quick Sheathe, would come to more than 18 points (for one weapon!), bundle them into Melee! for all weapons and 24 starts to seem quite a fair buy in price.

[Daigoro]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

It seems to me that part of the issue here is defining weapons skills as if they produce a to-hit target roll in isolation. But there is more to weapons skill use. It includes not just a standing target number to hit; it incorporates the footwork, timing, distance, leverage, and situational awareness that all tie together to produce that target number in the context of a deadly confrontation. All of which are different with different weapons.

This strikes me more as an argument that weapons should cross-default more easily. An untrained combatant wouldn't have any clue about footwork or getting maximum strength from a thrust or swing, while a sword-trained combatant switching to knife, tonfa or nunchaku would carry over a lot of that knowledge and just need to familiarise themself with the reach and leverage particular to the new weapon.

[kirbwarrior]

I really like combining weapon skills into smaller skills;

Fencing/H
Pole/H (Impact and Pole weapons)
Sword/H
Whip/VH (Flail and Whip weapons)
[some fifth one for weird weapons?]

Use optional specialties to keep skills at the same difficulties (give things like Knife and Force Whip a +1 to use). Fencing and Sword default at -3, everything else at -5. Melee Weapon! replaces many weapon wildcard skills.

To be more realistic, you could make the -5 above only work for defensive use (such as resisting feints, parrying, etc). This also makes the wildcard skill actually worth it. A player suggested this once and while I really like the idea, I would want to work it out more.

[Pursuivant]

Realistically, any serious fighter is going to have a higher DX than normal, which gives them superior defaults for melee weapons across the board.

If you want someone whose default skills with all melee weapons are better than normal, but who doesn't have superhuman DX, another possibility might be a variant on the "Jack of All Trades" Talent, which just boosts default skill levels for melee weapons, 5 points per level, and a maximum default level of DX-1 seems fair.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by JulianLW

Give this guy a quarterstaff and he'll hold it in the 2HS grip and whale on three mooks at a time. But give him a spear and he's liable to drop it if he tries anything except a straight poke at the torso - which he's almost certain to miss.

Spear skill is designed for pikes and relatively long spears, held in a refused stance while gripping the lower half or lower third of the shaft. Alternately, it allows you to hold a spear in one hand and a shield in the other. It allows you to hit tiny gaps on a target 2+ yards away with a quick thrust, while dodging or parrying the same. Think 16th century pikeman on 5th c. BCE hoplite.

For short spears, (e.g., the Qiang used in Wushu and other Chinese martial arts) where you can easily "choke up" to grasp the weapon at its balance and use it like a quarterstaff, Staff skill is more appropriate. The fact that your "staff" has a pointy tip on one end is an unimportant detail.

The default from spear to Staff-2 and spear to Staff-2 is maybe a bit severe, but not too out of line.