Brawling once again

[larsdangly]

There are tons of historical wrastlin' techniques intended for use in and against armor. Punching is just one little corner of the grand world of brawling!

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by phiwum

I do think that whatever interpretation I choose, brawling should be about as useful as knives.

I don't think so. TFT talents are designed to represent what the talents do - not to make every choice of talent somehow balanced and equally good for combat. And Brawling is both a social talent (with social abilities and also weapon-improvising abilities - though not so exciting if the bottle-dagger is nearly useless if your fist is as good as a dagger) and a combat talent, and one that doesn't require any equipment, and so can't be detected or disarmed. Meanwhile, for the reality sniff test, daggers are serious dangerous weapons and a real brawler or martial artist will prefer not to fight people who have them. Moreover, from a game design standpoint in combat, there are multiple rules for determining whether someone has a dagger ready or not in HTH - if you may as well just punch with Brawling, that seems to me a case of ability bloat making a previously interesting choice/situation vanish from the game.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by Skarg

I don't think so. TFT talents are designed to represent what the talents do - not to make every choice of talent somehow balanced and equally good for combat. And Brawling is both a social talent (with social abilities and also weapon-improvising abilities - though not so exciting if the bottle-dagger is nearly useless if your fist is as good as a dagger) and a combat talent, and one that doesn't require any equipment, and so can't be detected or disarmed. Meanwhile, for the reality sniff test, daggers are serious dangerous weapons and a real brawler or martial artist will prefer not to fight people who have them. Moreover, from a game design standpoint in combat, there are multiple rules for determining whether someone has a dagger ready or not in HTH - if you may as well just punch with Brawling, that seems to me a case of ability bloat making a previously interesting choice/situation vanish from the game.

I think you misunderstand. When I say "about as useful" I mean all things considered, including the fact that one doesn't have to ready a fist but he does have to ready a dagger. I'm not thinking just in terms of damage. I tend to think brawling should produce fewer hits than dagger.

Of course, even with that clarification, some one point rules are more essential than others. Driver doesn't get a whole lot of use compared to shield, for instance. So, I'm not too committed to the "about as useful" desideratum.

[Axly Suregrip]

To recap the issues:

Currently, if fighting dirty under Brawling is taken to mean unarm combat in HTH, then the +2 it gets plus the +1 bring it even with the +3 of a dagger in HTH. Furthermore, it makes Brawling a much better skill compared to the higher IQ skill: UC1. In both case it is in imbalance in the game.

Therefore the +2 should be reduced to mitigated in some way. This is my recommendation:

Make "fighting dirty" no longer using bare hands. Instead it is when using an improvised weapon. That is, the broken bottle used as a dagger gets the +2.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip

To recap the issues:

Currently, if fighting dirty under Brawling is taken to mean unarm combat in HTH, then the +2 it gets plus the +1 bring it even with the +3 of a dagger in HTH. Furthermore, it makes Brawling a much better skill compared to the higher IQ skill: UC1. In both case it is in imbalance in the game.

Therefore the +2 should be reduced to mitigated in some way. This is my recommendation:

Make "fighting dirty" no longer using bare hands. Instead it is when using an improvised weapon. That is, the broken bottle used as a dagger gets the +2.

I'm leaning towards either lumping it and accepting that brawling is as good as a dagger or using the suggestion that the dirty fighting bonus only applies when the fight begins clean.

[hcobb]

Advantages of UC I over Brawling:

• Pin bonus
• Engages enemies
• Can be used to stop thrust someone entering your hex if you have no weapon

Advantage of Brawling:

• Can be combined with shield expertise

[Shostak]

At my table, a hostile unarmed figure would engage an enemy, according to my understanding of engagement rules that goes all the way back to the original Melee microgame. Unfortunately, ITL muddies the engagement waters, making it understandable that one could rule that unarmed opponents cannot engage their enemies.

It might be useful to point out that Brawling lets one attack with a dagger in one hand while getting a damage bonus using their fist for a second attack; A strict reading of the rules would not allow someone with UC to do that.

[hcobb]

What level of UC allows for a Defend option (unlike Brawling)?

[Axly Suregrip]

Hi Henry,
Since an unarmed person can still attack, they can still engage. Bears and wolves are unarmed and have no such limitation. For this reason and since you missed some of the other advantages, I have updated the list below:

Advantages of UC I over Brawling:

• Pin bonus
• May attempt Kick attack (+2 damage but at -4 DX)

Advantage of Brawling:

• Can be combined with shield expertise
• May wear armor (Leather and heavier) <<<
• May have something in other hand (weapon or torch or anything)
• May have an IQ less than 10... as low as 7.
• Does +2 damage instead of +1 in both HTH and regular combat instead of UC1's +1. <<<

The two with <<< are reason enough never to need UC1.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Advantages of UC I over Brawling:

• Pin bonus
• Engages enemies
• Can be used to stop thrust someone entering your hex if you have no weapon

Advantage of Brawling:

• Can be combined with shield expertise

Why do you insist on ignoring the footnote I quoted? Brawlers can bloody well engage, as can unarmed and untalented hostile characters generally.