DF giants

[corwyn]

So has anyone used giants or similarly tough, hard hitting foes in their DF games? I'm currently looking at converting some old D&D adventures and weaving them into a campaign. I could replace them with something, but...

They seem too binary in a fight in gurps. Either the PCs get through without being hit or someone gets pasted/killed in one hit. D&D's giants convert well enough as 'weak' giants, 30 to 40 ST, but that's still 6 to 8d cr or cut.

[Flyndaran]

Giants won't consider human sized opponents a real threat so won't go full out initially. Second, when fighting something tiny, you don't use full force. You may make defensive attacks though which heavily armored foes may resist somewhat.
Tactically skilled giants though would and should be nigh impossible foes unless taken completely unprepared.

[khorboth]

I have used giants in DF a number of times. My players have learned to respect them.

Ordinarily, I put the PCs up against small numbers of giants, expecting them to only land a few hits or the heroes to blow through lots of luck/cleverness on the encounter.

One character disregarded warnings that a nation of giants put forth the best fighters they could muster and charged a group of plate-wearing warriors. On round 2, she took a halberd to the chest and was reduced below -4xHP. She pulled through, but barely.

For translating DnD adventures, the easiest way to do it would be to halve the number of foes.

As an alternative, try giving the primitive ones a DR divisor of 0.5 for being "primitive." It doesn't jive well with RAW, but works as a quick-fix if you have a well-armored fighter to take a couple of hits.

[Nymdok]

Originally Posted by corwyn

So has anyone used giants or similarly tough, hard hitting foes in their DF games? I'm currently looking at converting some old D&D adventures and weaving them into a campaign. I could replace them with something, but...

They seem too binary in a fight in gurps. Either the PCs get through without being hit or someone gets pasted/killed in one hit. D&D's giants convert well enough as 'weak' giants, 30 to 40 ST, but that's still 6 to 8d cr or cut.

As the combat envelope is shaped by the differnec in Damage to DR and Attack skillvs defense you have a fair area to explore.

If you worry about the giant damage being to instantanously deadly, then either dial down their strength to suit, or buff up the PCs DR. Once you get a feel for what 'alot of damage' is then you can make reasoned guesses as to how frequently you would like for them to 'hit'.

Note that adjusting that strength MAY skew your view of what you think a 'giant' should be in regards to their strength. Dont let that bother you in the slightest as Giant physiology (as noted in various places) is purely fantastic and therefore can be whatever the encounter requires.

If it DOES still bother you, and you avail yourself of several 'levels' of giant, then consider substituting a weaker variety of giant. In my head, I generally keep the old AD&D progression of Hill, stone, frost, fire, storm or something along those lines. If the adventure calls for a group of 5 Fire giants and you think that would be way too much for your players, then perhaps a Fire giant with 4 Hill Giants in his employ or even ogres if need be to find the balance youre looking for

This is just metal on meat arguments of course, there are always the infintie number of other variables that you could employ (Environmental, Magical, tactical, strategic etc).

Nymdok

[Blind Mapmaker]

We're talking four to seven metres of height here, right? If that is the case, the rules in GURPS Fantasy p. 51 do give you a starting point of roughly ST 22 for the smallest and ST 32 for the largest. Add in a couple of points for them being warriors and ST 45 is probably the maximum. That means between 5d-1 and 7d+1 of swing damage.

Yes, that means a fight with several average giants is going to be a risky thing for an experienced DF party and it also means that some party members would be better off not getting close. Some won't do damage either. It also means giants won't wear full-body armour, suffer -2 to -3 to hit their adversaries and can be brought down to -HP with about four or five well-placed hits by front line fighters, scouts and wizards. If you make them stick to clubs, hammers and spears that remains a fight that can be won with some expenditure in resources. Things get dicier if you give them axes or - heaven forbid - swung impaling weapons.

That is assuming a fair fight, something your PCs shouldn't plan on doing much when fighting groups of giants will be their daily bread. If you use the to hit penalty as a penalty for spotting ambushes by humans, the PCs should have a more than decent chance at surprising the giants. A main thing here would be to separate them so that you can finish off 1 or 2 in five seconds before the the rest arrive. First strikes and mental stun don't hurt either. If you go all out guerilla warfare on them, picking off lone guards and such is even better.

[sir_pudding]

IME, as giants have eyes Scouts are murder machines as usual. Also the difference in SMs means that if you give your giants normal skill levels for enemies, they are going to be pretty clumsy against SM 0 PCs. Additionally they generally will have fewer buffs than other intelligent enemies because of the increased costs of Regular spells.

[Kalzazz]

I like giants . . . and I dont penalize them to hit SM 0 foes

I use Low Tech ST progression / 10 as a multiplier on what giants role as a humam would be

For instance a group of SM +4 Frost Giants are composed of a brawny weapon master leader, a bunch of normal guards, and a SM +5 land narwhal mount

Low Tech ST for SM +4 is 50, so / 10 is 5. So we multiply by 5 for our giants

A normal human Guard might have ST 12, so our Giant Guard has ST 60

A brawny weapon master might have ST 21, so 105 (round up to 110 for breakpoint) for our brawny weapon master giant

A human mount might have ST 25, so our land narwhal frost giant mount has ST 125

And assign skills as normal, guards might have 13, weapon masters 25, and land narwhals? No idea what skill a land narwhal has, so, uh, 16?

[dripton]

Yes, there have been a few giants in my DF game. Yes, they hit hard enough to ruin a PC's day. I've never run an adventure with huge numbers of giants, though. That sounds super lethal.

Things that make giants slightly less awesome:

Use relative SM house rules (barbarians hate me), so the SM 3 giant is rolling at -3 and the PCs are swinging at +3.

Remember the blowthrough rules. Losing your full HP in one blow and needing to make consciousness checks is not nearly as bad as losing 6 times your HP in one blow and being instadead.

Don't give the average giants great weapons. Huge swords are very expensive; trees and rocks and fists are free. Only the boss giants should have great weapons.

All PCs in a DF game should have Luck. Not having Luck means that when a big enemy rolls a critical hit, you're out of answers.

[Pragmatic]

When I think of converting D&D to GURPS, I just assume that D&D stuff has a lot of hype.

That SM +4 D&D giant? It's really an SM +2 giant.

(Likewise, Elminster is just a mage/sage with good PR...)

[Dustin]

Is there a Technique anywhere to offset size penalties to hit? Seems to me that a giant who regularly fights humans might be able to buy some of that off.