Help with a Grim Survival DF Setting

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by DAT

If their primary character dies in the first fight, then the Player's task is to finish fleshing out the backup character. Thoughts?

You could require each player to create one initial character and one backup character, right away, and then over the following months demand extra backup characters, e.g. one new such per 1.5 months.

In addition to the above, you could make a bunch of genericized backup PCs that you can hand to players who have run out of backup characters. Personally I really dislike being handed a character to play (much of the fun of being a player is that I get to play a character that I have created), but in campaign taking place in an ultra-lethal world, it may be necessary.

[Gold & Appel Inc]

My group's 250-point Standard DF Underdark game would become an extremely grim survival setting if you just removed the ability to leave the Underdark, really. Just take away Town in this setting and the party is almost-inevitably screwed.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc

My group's 250-point Standard DF Underdark game would become an extremely grim survival setting if you just removed the ability to leave the Underdark, really. Just take away Town in this setting and the party is almost-inevitably screwed.

The whole DF concept is built around being able to return to town. You'd need to make a lot of modifications to facilitate the equivalent of an Angband-style "Iron Man"-campaign.

For starters, Power Items must somehow self-recharge. Gold must be useable for something, or else done away with (and doing away with gold creates its own problems).

And many other issues as well...

[Varyon]

First off, assuming they bothered to read that journal excerpt, don't bother with rolls and the like to see if they survive the descent - as suggested in the journal, they will have tied themselves to the chain to prevent such a problem (untying themselves near the bottom so they aren't defenseless, of course, will be a concern).

If you're going with the description from that excerpt, the prisoners are lowered without any equipment to speak of, needing to grab something from the pile once they get down there. The first ones down are guaranteed to die (for fairness, don't have the PC's be the first ones down), but later comers may have a few seconds to pick up a weapon from the pile. Armor won't be a concern until after the battle, at which point they can rummage through the supply pile for decent armor and perhaps a better weapon.

For casualties, and the PC's impact on them, what you could do is the following:

Give the White Tigers, as a group, a pool of "Morale Points." Wounding a tiger drops MP by 1 (and results in that tiger retreating), while slaying one drops MP by 5 (or more). Once the tigers are at 0 MP or lower, roll 3d6 against 12 every few seconds. Failure means the tigers Retreat, critical failure means they Rout. Every -5 to MP is a further -1 to this check. In the excerpt, let's say the tigers started with 15 MP - the 2 slain tigers would have dropped this to 5, and at 5 more tigers wounded they would have needed to start making checks against retreating.

During the battle, a set number of Redeemers are slain every few seconds (same time step as the morale check for the tigers). At 20% casualties, the first Martyr is incapacitated - at 40%, he is slain. At 60% casualties the second Martyr is incapacitated - at 80%, he is slain. When the tigers Retreat, they still claim their number of dead for that time span, dragging them off screaming into the darkness. If they Rout, they drop whoever they were holding and flee, stopping casualties there - and also leaving behind some of the casualties from the previous time step (if both Martyrs are still up, they save 75% of them; in one is still up, he saves 50% of them; if one is dead and the other incapacitated, he comes to in time to save 25% of them).

[DAT]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

You could require each player to create one initial character and one backup character, right away, and then over the following months demand extra backup characters, e.g. one new such per 1.5 months.

In addition to the above, you could make a bunch of genericized backup PCs that you can hand to players who have run out of backup characters. Personally I really dislike being handed a character to play (much of the fun of being a player is that I get to play a character that I have created), but in campaign taking place in an ultra-lethal world, it may be necessary.

I will probably require a main character and backup character fully ready to go, and the concept (race, profession, and focus) for a second backup character, but the second backup character doesn't need to be written up.

As the campaign progresses, new additional races will be allowed.
-Dan

[DAT]

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc

My group's 250-point Standard DF Underdark game would become an extremely grim survival setting if you just removed the ability to leave the Underdark, really. Just take away Town in this setting and the party is almost-inevitably screwed.

Well in this case they are 150 points, and town (the ability to buy stuff) is sort of available via trading back up the Well. There is just no safe place to party for a week or two after you go adventuring. And the cost and availability of gear is not in the party's favor.
-Dan

[DAT]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

The whole DF concept is built around being able to return to town. You'd need to make a lot of modifications to facilitate the equivalent of an Angband-style "Iron Man"-campaign.

For starters, Power Items must somehow self-recharge. Gold must be useable for something, or else done away with (and doing away with gold creates its own problems).

And many other issues as well...

There will be no Power Items for PCs to start. I was thinking about allowing minor power stones, with lots of recharge quirks, to be found as treasure at the start. Eventually the PC may find a way to charge Power Items.

The more problematic issue is training. I may default to self training, or being trained by other Redeemers. Any thoughts?
-Dan

[scc]

DF's power items are Manastones (Magic, pg. 70). It takes 1 hour and 5 energy to put one energy into a Manastone, prerequisite of Powerstone, VH skill

[DAT]

Originally Posted by Varyon

First off, assuming they bothered to read that journal excerpt, don't bother with rolls and the like to see if they survive the descent - as suggested in the journal, they will have tied themselves to the chain to prevent such a problem (untying themselves near the bottom so they aren't defenseless, of course, will be a concern).

I was thinking about the chance of falling burning hay-pitch bails hitting them, or being hit by falling Redeemers.

Originally Posted by Varyon

If you're going with the description from that excerpt, the prisoners are lowered without any equipment to speak of, needing to grab something from the pile once they get down there. The first ones down are guaranteed to die (for fairness, don't have the PC's be the first ones down), but later comers may have a few seconds to pick up a weapon from the pile. Armor won't be a concern until after the battle, at which point they can rummage through the supply pile for decent armor and perhaps a better weapon.

I was going back and forth over that. I was starting to think PCs going down unarmed was too harsh, so was thinking about the Redeemers being allowed to arm and armor up top (I was thinking about having one of the Brother Martyrs speak up for them, to gain the Brother some good will in the company). The Brother Martyrs and Trustee Redeemers will go down armed and armored.

What do folks think:
- Redeemers go down unarmed and unarmored, and have to go grab a weapon before a "White Tiger" rips them open and drags their body away to devour it,
- Redeemers go down armed, but not armored, or
- Redeemers go down armed and armored.

Is the first option too harsh or not?

Originally Posted by Varyon

For casualties, and the PC's impact on them, what you could do is the following:

Give the White Tigers, as a group, a pool of "Morale Points." Wounding a tiger drops MP by 1 (and results in that tiger retreating), while slaying one drops MP by 5 (or more). Once the tigers are at 0 MP or lower, roll 3d6 against 12 every few seconds. Failure means the tigers Retreat, critical failure means they Rout. Every -5 to MP is a further -1 to this check. In the excerpt, let's say the tigers started with 15 MP - the 2 slain tigers would have dropped this to 5, and at 5 more tigers wounded they would have needed to start making checks against retreating.

I like the idea. I'm just not sure how to implement it with a force of ~120 Redeemers and Brother Martyrs against 3d6x5 White Tigers at the start. Or are the wounding and subtracting of Morale Points based only on the PC versus White Tiger combat?

Originally Posted by Varyon

During the battle, a set number of Redeemers are slain every few seconds (same time step as the morale check for the tigers). At 20% casualties, the first Martyr is incapacitated - at 40%, he is slain. At 60% casualties the second Martyr is incapacitated - at 80%, he is slain. When the tigers Retreat, they still claim their number of dead for that time span, dragging them off screaming into the darkness. If they Rout, they drop whoever they were holding and flee, stopping casualties there - and also leaving behind some of the casualties from the previous time step (if both Martyrs are still up, they save 75% of them; in one is still up, he saves 50% of them; if one is dead and the other incapacitated, he comes to in time to save 25% of them).

Two other variables here are the arrival rate of the Redeemers and the White Tigers.

Assuming 5 Brother Martyrs, 15 Redeemer Trustees, and 100 Redeemers.
The Redeermer Trustees land first, over the coarse of ~9 seconds, and the Brother Martyrs take and additional ~3 seconds to land. The rest of the Redeemers arive at a rate of 2 every 3 seconds. So it takes ~165 seconds for the entire company to land. The White Tigers (attracted by the smell of blood from fallen Redeemers and the sight of the burning pitch-hay bails, which they now associate with food) will start attacking within 3d6x(d3) seconds (not sure if I should have a delay based on the number of fallen Redeemers) of start of the arrival. So on average, 26 Redeemers (the 15 Redeemer Trustees, 5 Brother Martyrs, and 6 normal Redeemers; 4 armed, 2 still grabing weapons) will be on the ground when the first White Tigers attack.

I'm not sure what rate I should have the White Tigers arrive, maybe 20% of the total per wave, with 5 waves separated by 3d6 seconds between them?

Now I have to figure in the number of Brother Martyrs, Trustees, and normal Redeemers are wounded/killed over the course of each attack, and how many White Tigers are wounded/killed.

If I don't watch it, I'll turn this into a calculus problem.
-Dan

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by DAT

I will probably require a main character and backup character fully ready to go, and the concept (race, profession, and focus) for a second backup character, but the second backup character doesn't need to be written up.

That's a very good idea. Just don't lock players onto their proposed concept for the secondary backup character. They should be allowed to change their minds.