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Old 10-04-2013, 12:07 PM   #51
chandley
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: grappling a flier

Ack, you are really, really not reading what is being written for you. Kromm has answered you, clearly, three times.

ST 200 Hulk could have his ST defined in a few ways:
"Its zero-range TK" = physics doesnt apply. Hulkster can exert 200 ST straight down exactly the same way Flyboy can exert ST 75 straight up. He has a power that lets him do it.

"Its hyper-efficient muscle, doesnt weigh a lot" = A good chunk of Hulksters ST and HP are basically massless. For purposes of resisting being picked up by Flyboy, he has ST determined by his weight. See Kromms last post.

Heck, your GM has even come into this thread, read what Kromm wrote, groked it, and thought it was a good idea. He has even stated he is thinking about how he wants this ST200 guy to be defined.

Your strident objections have been addressed. You need to talk to your GM, and accept how he has this character defined.
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Old 10-04-2013, 12:08 PM   #52
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Default Re: grappling a flier

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ack View Post

But if you choose to have ST of 200 and to weigh in at one ton, then you get the bonuses and penalties of weighing one ton. There should be no 'extra compensation' for choosing that weight. No-one forced it on you.
That is precisely what I said. However, I think you're reading "bonuses" in "bonuses and penalties" as "extra compensation," and I'm arguing that no, they're the flipside of the penalties, not an extra. It's only fair to use weight – not bought-and-paid-for ST – to assess whether you can be picked up if you're also getting the flipside of that, which is that being body-slammed will hurt less, high gravity will affect you less, and you can jump like crazy. It's definitely not okay, and effectively a freebie extra for the flying character in your example, if the ST doesn't prevent being picked up, yet does mean being bulky and hurt more when slammed into the ground.

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Originally Posted by Ack View Post

I understand GURPS to be a generic system. Can we please keep it that way?
That's precisely what I'm trying to do. The math I've been showing is fully generic. What isn't generic is treating someone with ST 200 and weight commensurate with ST 25 as being ST 25 to resist being lifted but ST 200 if smashed into something. Either he's ST 25 in both cases or he's ST 200 in both cases; giving him the worst of both worlds isn't generic, but in fact "flying guy's unfair fantasy world."

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Originally Posted by Ack View Post

So wait; if I get this right, you are indeed stating that if the heavy character has no movement powers (he doesn't) and if he has no specific power to give him weird types of ST (based on Hulk) then ...

he can be lifted up by a flier whom he is grappling.

Correct?
Yep, that's exactly what I've said three or four times so far. All I'm adding is that the ensuing body slam won't be of very much consequence, because the ST 200 guy will only count as having HP 25 in the collision.
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Old 10-04-2013, 12:14 PM   #53
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Default Re: grappling a flier

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Originally Posted by chandley View Post

ST 200 Hulk could have his ST defined in a few ways:

"Its zero-range TK" = physics doesnt apply. Hulkster can exert 200 ST straight down exactly the same way Flyboy can exert ST 75 straight up. He has a power that lets him do it.
Which is how many modern bricks are defined. Back in the 1960s and 1970s, nobody cared about this . . . but these days, the strength is typically a weird, zero-range force field. That's worth +0% because the upsides ("My ST counts for all purposes, despite my low mass!") are balanced by the downsides ("My ST also gives me HP that count against me if I'm rammed into something . . . ouch."); that is, because all this "amazing" power does is make ST work like boring old ST from mass. It isn't adding anything worth paying points for.

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Originally Posted by chandley View Post

"Its hyper-efficient muscle, doesnt weigh a lot" = A good chunk of Hulksters ST and HP are basically massless. For purposes of resisting being picked up by Flyboy, he has ST determined by his weight. See Kromms last post.
Exactly.

There are two decisions to make:
1. Is my ST commensurate with my mass?

2. If not, does my ST work as if it were commensurate with my mass, thanks to my powers?
If either is true, then ST is ST, HP are HP, and you can ignore the fancy math. If ST is totally wild and out of whack with mass due to powers, then you have to care about the math. A given supers campaign must assume one case or the other as its default. It's generally more fun to avoid math, ergo it's more fun to say that all ST comes with either mass or weird powers that let ST be used to resist everything, including airlifts. But the opposite default it possible! If the campaign hasn't selected a default, then that's a hole in the campaign contract, not a problem with the game system, and something to be resolved by the players and GM, not the game designers.
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Old 10-04-2013, 12:15 PM   #54
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Default Re: grappling a flier

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Yep, that's exactly what I've said three or four times so far. All I'm adding is that the ensuing body slam won't be of very much consequence, because the ST 200 guy will only count as having HP 25 in the collision.
I'm good with that. Having read it through several times, I am happy with that aspect. I'd just like to be able to fly off with the guy at all. Not happy with being chained down by the Grapple rules.
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Old 10-04-2013, 12:19 PM   #55
Mirtai
 
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Default Re: grappling a flier

To paraphrase, I believe Kromm is suggesting that either a super with a high strength but low weight (like our Hulk-Like super in question) can go one of two ways. Either they have some sort of "Super inertia" that allows them to use their full strength for the purposes of keeping people they are grappling from moving, or they should get all the other benefits of having a low mass as well, altering the rules as written to essentially create a new type of strength specifically for such character.

Ie, being able to jump farther, taking less damage in collisions, being effected less by high gravity.

But the Super does not have to take that option. They can have their high strength and get all the benefits of a high mass, including the ability to hold down a weaker flier regardless of their physical mass.

Kromm has suggested a whole new type of Strength. It's a 'realistic' option but at the same time, it's a complex change to make, and an optional one for supers with that kind of strength.
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Old 10-04-2013, 12:21 PM   #56
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Default Re: grappling a flier

"Super inertia" is way more common than "massless strength" in comic books, so I personally feel that it's a more valid default for a superheroes campaign. However, that's just my opinion. I will say that not defining great ST one way or the other by default is going to create serious problems in any supers campaign, though.
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Old 10-04-2013, 12:22 PM   #57
Anthony
 
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Default Re: grappling a flier

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
That's still likely an extra table lookup. Tolerable, but not as smooth as a straight QC.
It's a one-time calculation. Put it on your character sheet, done. This value replaces ST for all rolls vs ST.
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Old 10-04-2013, 12:24 PM   #58
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Default Re: grappling a flier

However, if the character uses the ST for Jumping rule, does that follow that he has massless ST automatically?

Because the character has already demonstrated a prodigious leaping capability.
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Old 10-04-2013, 12:33 PM   #59
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Default Re: grappling a flier

Beaten to just about everything.
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Originally Posted by Ack View Post
The character, by the way, is based on the Hulk. He's big and tough, is all.

Personally, I don't see my character attempting to pick up the NPC as being cheesy, when I ask "How much does he weigh?" and the GM says, "A bit over one ton." You weigh what you weigh.

I am personally in tune with the "ST for Leaping" optional rule (although it produces some AWESOME destruction if pushed too far).
You weigh what you weigh, but you don't necessarily act like it at all times.

For a trivial example not related to your situation, if the ST 200 guy was a flier, that would imply he can exert that ST 200 to the fullest straight down without an anchor. In that case, you're not flying anywhere. You can't drag Superman all over town by taking his feet off the ground.

And it's not just fliers whose super ST doesn't play so simply. ST 200 guy can pick up a two-ton car in one hand and fling it. But if he does, does he get hurled in the opposite direction? For a low-angle throw with full respect to Newton, he's thrown the other way at twice the car's velocity! But supers tend not to smash themselves though walls with reaction when doing things like that, which leads to the possibility that their ST doesn't work exactly the same as impossibly powerful muscles.
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But seriously, choosing one's weight happens at character creation. If the player gets to say "My character weighs this much" regardless of ST or HT (both of which I personally think contribute to weight in the real world) then if his 50 lb character gets picked up and slung around all the time, or if his 350 pound blob has trouble getting through doors - it's no-one's fault but his. You pick the weight you want, and you live with the consequences. And if it means that you are light enough to be flown away with when you Grapple someone, then so be it. Alternatively, if it means that you are too heavy for some footbridges, therein lies a problem also. Being light is not always a penalty; being heavy is not always a bonus. You buy the ST, you get the ability to pick up small trucks, or always being able to open that stubborn pickle jar; you also get HP (because you paid for it) and the ability to punch the average mecha's lights out.

But if you choose to have ST of 200 and to weigh in at one ton, then you get the bonuses and penalties of weighing one ton. There should be no 'extra compensation' for choosing that weight. No-one forced it on you.
There's not actually a super-clean breakdown of what is responsible for what and what hurts or helps at the core of any of that. And there's the competing desires to make character weight a freely-chosen cosmetic value (because GURPS does not want to dictate body shape judgements) and to not ignore it when it is logically important. Most printed rules are more closely aligned with the former.
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Originally Posted by Ack View Post
I understand GURPS to be a generic system. Can we please keep it that way?
There's nothing un-generic going on here.
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Old 10-04-2013, 12:36 PM   #60
Mirtai
 
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Default Re: grappling a flier

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
"Super inertia" is way more common than "massless strength" in comic books, so I personally feel that it's a more valid default for a superheroes campaign. However, that's just my opinion. I will say that not defining great ST one way or the other by default is going to create serious problems in any supers campaign, though.
I agree. It needs to be clearly defined one way or another to prevent confusion in the game. Super inertia is quite a bit more common in four color stories, true, but I will admit that I am a bit of a physics geek, and trend toward realism whenever I can do so while staying within the rules.

It's a tough call though, as I would essentially be altering the rules (with Kromm's advice) to suit realism better... which is a VERY slippery slope, especially with a player like Ack.

No offense meant, Ack, but you are a pretty classic power gamer. If I alter one rule in favor of realism, every time you think of a new way to abuse physics to get what you want, you'll be coming back at me to change the rules a bit more... and a bit more.

It would be nice if our gaming system perfectly emulated reality, (excepting of course where we WANT to break physics over our knee) but in the end, it's a game, and it's a whole lot easier to just use the rules we've got than to constantly rewrite them to better suit the universe we're envisioning together.

Easy way, or hard way? *sighs*
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