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Old 10-05-2018, 10:12 AM   #11
platimus
 
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Default Re: Shieldwall?

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Originally Posted by Chris Rice View Post
That is an interesting excellent point. I think I agree with your assessment.
Thanks. I sometimes wonder if I'm deficient in some way.
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Old 10-05-2018, 11:12 AM   #12
ULFGARD
 
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Default Re: Shieldwall?

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Originally Posted by platimus View Post
Thanks. I sometimes wonder if I'm deficient in some way.
Not at all. I was thinking of this very thing last night. I think your solution is great! I don't think there's a need for anything more. This is the solution I'm going to go with.

However, there's still room for something like a shield wall talent that makes this more effective, if someone wanted to create something like it. It would naturally increase the incentive to train this way, but it would probably be something seen more in professional militaries than "ordinary" adventurers.
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Old 10-05-2018, 11:42 AM   #13
platimus
 
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Default Re: Shieldwall?

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Originally Posted by ULFGARD View Post
Not at all. I was thinking of this very thing last night. I think your solution is great! I don't think there's a need for anything more. This is the solution I'm going to go with.

However, there's still room for something like a shield wall talent that makes this more effective, if someone wanted to create something like it. It would naturally increase the incentive to train this way, but it would probably be something seen more in professional militaries than "ordinary" adventurers.
Well, there is already a Shield and Shield Expert talent. I think those would be enough. After all, a shieldwall is only as strong as it's weakest link. Militaries would probably train their shieldmen in Shield and Shield Expert.
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Old 10-05-2018, 02:11 PM   #14
Chris Rice
 
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Default Re: Shieldwall?

The other danger with making the Shieldwall too powerful is that it could become the default combat tactic. That's something I wouldn't want to happen.
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Old 10-05-2018, 03:47 PM   #15
platimus
 
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The other danger with making the Shieldwall too powerful is that it could become the default combat tactic. That's something I wouldn't want to happen.
True. Although I have no problem with everyone getting tactically smart and using shieldwalls all the time...as long as it isn't too powerful. There are already a number of ways to "buff" your shieldwall. Like give all the shieldmen Shield and Shield Expert. Give them all Tower shields, spike shields, etc.

And those are just the non-magical methods.
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Old 10-07-2018, 12:41 PM   #16
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Shieldwall?

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Originally Posted by ULFGARD View Post
However, there's still room for something like a shield wall talent that makes this more effective, if someone wanted to create something like it. It would naturally increase the incentive to train this way, but it would probably be something seen more in professional militaries than "ordinary" adventurers.
My limited experience with shields is based on the 4.5-7 lb viking round shield. These things need to be reinforced with hide on front back (pushing to the 6-9lb if the hide is heavy) to act as a suitable barrier face-on (the wood core is VERY thin on all finds. Like 7mm at the boss, 2.5mm at the edge).

Even so, what I've found is that if you can form up, the key bit with properly-employed shields is that it's REALLY REALLY hard to find an opening. Also, you don't necessarily need to "engage" the guy directly in front of you, because your shield-partners can do that. Effectively, and especially if you've got local numerical superiority, any time a foe attacks one guy, two others get free shots, if they can take them. Seeing and reacting to that opening without breaking the wall/formation line might make a nice talent benefit. Effectively playing around with who's engaged and "pinned/anchored" in a fight, and who's free to do whatever they want. I imagine this gets quite ugly with spears.
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Old 10-09-2018, 01:41 AM   #17
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Default Re: Shieldwall?

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My limited experience with shields is based on the 4.5-7 lb viking round shield. These things need to be reinforced with hide on front back (pushing to the 6-9lb if the hide is heavy) to act as a suitable barrier face-on (the wood core is VERY thin on all finds. Like 7mm at the boss, 2.5mm at the edge).
the Scots Targe tends to be thicker (10-15mm, throughout), and otherwise of similar construction in general. Two layers of light wood, laminated into a panel. Stronger and heavier than the viking... and slower. Then add the semi-decorative nailwork... a proper 19" can have a pound of nails alone.

Where the viking shield flexes, the targe absorbs the impact energy by being more massive. Different routes to the same effect.

I made mine from an expedient material - 1/2" plywood - and even with no face nails (because if it had them, then I couldn't use it in SCA Fencing), it absorbs a lot of energy - equally as much as the plastic bucklers some of the ARMA guys are using absorb by flexing. (Locally, ARMA guys show to SCA Fence practices, and vice versa.)
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Old 10-09-2018, 09:47 PM   #18
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Shieldwall?

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Originally Posted by ak_aramis View Post
the Scots Targe tends to be thicker (10-15mm, throughout), and otherwise of similar construction in general. Two layers of light wood, laminated into a panel. Stronger and heavier than the viking... and slower. Then add the semi-decorative nailwork... a proper 19" can have a pound of nails alone.

Where the viking shield flexes, the targe absorbs the impact energy by being more massive. Different routes to the same effect.

I made mine from an expedient material - 1/2" plywood - and even with no face nails (because if it had them, then I couldn't use it in SCA Fencing), it absorbs a lot of energy - equally as much as the plastic bucklers some of the ARMA guys are using absorb by flexing. (Locally, ARMA guys show to SCA Fence practices, and vice versa.)
I should note that the most common conclusion I've seen from folks that have studied the viking shield finds themselves is that the shield wall was not a viking thing. Both the physical archaeology plus the fact that they were (during the "peak viking" raiding period" effectively skirmishers/super-light infantry.

So viking shields are a terrible example of "what to do in a shield wall," since the answer seems to be, in most cases "don't do that."

Other shields and formations of heavier infantry, both before and after the viking era, clearly have documentation - extensively so - of tight shield formations.

My intro point was just stating the limits of my knowledge. The second - that shields and walls of shields is remarkably hard to find an opening through - is my real point, and speculating that mucking around with who can be considered engaged and not might be a way to mechanize these concepts.
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