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Old 09-29-2018, 06:38 PM   #21
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: IQ rise and talents

Quote:
Originally Posted by platimus View Post
At 36, you'll pay 400 to reach 37. 400 is only 100 less than 500. At 37, you'll pay 800 to get to 38. 800 is 300 more than 500. It seems completely in scale. At what stat-level do you expect players will start spending their XP on Talents instead of stats?
Gee I hope not, that would be even cheaper. Seems to me it says "Added attribute point" on the header of the left column, so it seems to me if you are at 36, the "added attribute" would be 37, which shows 800.

Still, it seems way too low, and not matching the description of what I would think would be the decision point, unless some talent or spell is especially tempting. Hmm Expert Horsemanship at 1000 XP, versus my 36th and 37th attribute points at 400 or 800 XP - I think that's the point where wizards _might_ start to consider it for things like the Lightning spell, but even in those cases, adding attributes is a big deal.

If I'm assuming I'm getting enough XP to add talents and spells at 500 XP per point, I think the 36th attribute for 400 XP is going to be very attractive, and so is the 37th for 800 XP.

I'd certainly not be likely to go for most talents at 500 XP before that - the first three are just 100, 100, and 200, so basically PCs won't be adding talents until they are 35 points. Feels weird to me. Comparing to NPCs, where presumably most tend to stay around 30 points, but hopefully could be trained in some 1-point talent, but I wouldn't expect to be able to be trained in +5 attribute points (or even +1 attribute point) for the same amount of effort.
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Old 09-29-2018, 06:46 PM   #22
hcobb
 
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Default Re: IQ rise and talents

The trade off point for general usage is when you can get three talent points for one attribute point. I.e. the 38th attribute point.
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Old 09-29-2018, 07:00 PM   #23
platimus
 
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Default Re: IQ rise and talents

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Originally Posted by Chris Goodwin View Post
Has this been explicitly stated anywhere?
Yes it has multiple times in multiple places.
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Old 09-29-2018, 07:09 PM   #24
platimus
 
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Default Re: IQ rise and talents

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Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
Gee I hope not, that would be even cheaper. Seems to me it says "Added attribute point" on the header of the left column, so it seems to me if you are at 36, the "added attribute" would be 37, which shows 800.

Still, it seems way too low, and not matching the description of what I would think would be the decision point, unless some talent or spell is especially tempting. Hmm Expert Horsemanship at 1000 XP, versus my 36th and 37th attribute points at 400 or 800 XP - I think that's the point where wizards _might_ start to consider it for things like the Lightning spell, but even in those cases, adding attributes is a big deal.

If I'm assuming I'm getting enough XP to add talents and spells at 500 XP per point, I think the 36th attribute for 400 XP is going to be very attractive, and so is the 37th for 800 XP.

I'd certainly not be likely to go for most talents at 500 XP before that - the first three are just 100, 100, and 200, so basically PCs won't be adding talents until they are 35 points. Feels weird to me. Comparing to NPCs, where presumably most tend to stay around 30 points, but hopefully could be trained in some 1-point talent, but I wouldn't expect to be able to be trained in +5 attribute points (or even +1 attribute point) for the same amount of effort.
Ok, I got my eyes or wires crossed there. I think you know what I meant. Everything you just said agrees with the statement in ITL.
"Somewhere around a total of 36 or 37 stat points, most players will choose to start learning new abilities instead of buying higher stats"
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Old 09-29-2018, 07:42 PM   #25
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Default Re: IQ rise and talents

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Originally Posted by platimus View Post
Ok, I got my eyes or wires crossed there. I think you know what I meant. Everything you just said agrees with the statement in ITL.
"Somewhere around a total of 36 or 37 stat points, most players will choose to start learning new abilities instead of buying higher stats"
That comment applies to the XP costs SJ last posted on the Experience thread. But the new ITL draft cut the lower-level costs steeply, and made the increasing costs double at every level. Now it'd be much more accurate to change "36 or 37" to "38".

Sorry to disagree so much, but it looks to me like the previous curve was nice and fit the description, but I'd characterize the new curve as "you blow through points 33-35 like they were barely there, then get the 36th and 37th points more slowly but probably don't think about talents but might get a good spell or two instead, or a wish. For the 38th point you've got about an even choice. The 39th point is quite expensive, the 40th even moreso, and 41 or 42 are extremely expensive. The later numbers are just there for there to be a number, but start taking years of play to get each point. So at 39 or 40 points, you probably stop getting attributes and just get talents, spells and wishes.

Personally I'd tweak it so players get to spend more time playing characters in the 35-37 range, and are thinking about learning more talents and spells instead of adding attributes at that point.

One thing I'll say in favor of the current costs though is it is one change that actually makes things a bit harder on wizards, most attributes being so cheap compared to learning a spell.
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Old 09-29-2018, 08:09 PM   #26
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Default Re: IQ rise and talents

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
That comment applies to the XP costs SJ last posted on the Experience thread. But the new ITL draft cut the lower-level costs steeply, and made the increasing costs double at every level. Now it'd be much more accurate to change "36 or 37" to "38".
Oh goodness...
Quote:
Either way, the line about how at 36 or 37 points, you'll want to switch to buying talents (at 500 XP per talent point) seems like it is really out of scale with the listed attribute costs, which are only 800 XP for the 37th point.
You think it's off by 1 point and that is "really out of scale"? I don't know the background of the comment/thread but you may be right. In fact, I'll go ahead and say "You win" LOL The numbers in the statement should be bumped up 1 point so that it's not "really out of scale" LOL

Quote:
Sorry to disagree so much, but it looks to me like the previous curve was nice and fit the description, but I'd characterize the new curve as "you blow through points 33-35 like they were barely there, then get the 36th and 37th points more slowly but probably don't think about talents but might get a good spell or two instead, or a wish. For the 38th point you've got about an even choice. The 39th point is quite expensive, the 40th even moreso, and 41 or 42 are extremely expensive. The later numbers are just there for there to be a number, but start taking years of play to get each point. So at 39 or 40 points, you probably stop getting attributes and just get talents, spells and wishes.
That's a fair assessment.

Quote:
Personally I'd tweak it so players get to spend more time playing characters in the 35-37 range, and are thinking about learning more talents and spells instead of adding attributes at that point.
As GM, you can control much time players spend in their mid 30s with the way you dole out XP.

As a player, I WOULD be thinking about Talents and spells in my 35-37 range. I probably wouldn't actually save up for them unless it was something I thought would be more useful than the at-buff. I probably would wait until I was 37.

If there is a particular talent you think the group needs, you could always introduce an NPC that is willing to (a)tag along, (b)teach the talent at a reduced XP cost (because he's that good of a teacher), or (c)both.

Quote:
One thing I'll say in favor of the current costs though is it is one change that actually makes things a bit harder on wizards, most attributes being so cheap compared to learning a spell.
Until you get 36 :)
I think it's a good balance actually. All spells are 500. I haven't thoroughly examined the Talents but most seem to be 1000 or 1500.

This get us to where we may be the two different sides of the same coin. I think the Talents/Spells are slightly too expensive. A 400, 800, 1200 scale would seem better to me. Maybe this is what you were driving at. I thought you were suggesting changing the at-boost scale. It seems OK to me but I think something like this wouldn't be awful either:
34th or lower 100 XP
35th 200
36th 400
37th 800
38th 1,200
39th 3,000
40th 6,000

Last edited by platimus; 09-29-2018 at 08:41 PM.
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Old 09-29-2018, 09:02 PM   #27
hcobb
 
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Default Re: IQ rise and talents

To help out starting characters I'd rather word the table this way.

For each added talent/spell slot or attribute XP cost
1st and 2nd 100 XP
3rd and 4th 200 XP
5th and 6th 400 XP
7th and 8th 800 XP
...

With a note at the end that each talent/spell slot costs no more than 500 XP each, with three slots per spell for heroes and most talents taking double the heroic number of slots for wizards.

This way starting characters aren't completely fnorded over if they need to learn a new language or adapt when the campaign suddenly turns nautical, etc.
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Last edited by hcobb; 09-29-2018 at 09:09 PM.
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Old 09-29-2018, 09:40 PM   #28
Wayne
 
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Default Re: IQ rise and talents

Actually like the poor dog in Proverbs 26:11, I really think this needs to be printed in black and white in the rules.
  1. IQ slots no longer count for anything other than creating a new character. There is no mention of IQ Slots in the rules.
  2. Somewhere around a total of 36 or 37 stat points, most players will choose to start learning new abilities instead of buying higher stats. I think this implies that prior to 36 or 37 an extra talent or spell comes with each IQ point added.

I'm not arguing that I'm right and your wrong, what I would like is in the printed rules (in the forums doesn't count) something like this:

Experience points can be spent in several ways:
To improve your basic stats: ST, DX, or IQ. This will improve all talents and saving rolls associated with that stat, but it become expensive at high levels. Note that adding an extra IQ point does not automatically entitle the figure to another spell or talent.

OR

Experience points can be spent in several ways:
To improve your basic stats: ST, DX, or IQ. This will improve all talents and saving rolls associated with that stat, but it become expensive at high levels. Note that adding an extra IQ point does allow the figure to obtain another spell or talent.
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Old 09-29-2018, 09:42 PM   #29
Wayne
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
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Default Re: IQ rise and talents

Of course, that shouldn't read (as it currently does)
Quote:
but it become expensive at high levels.
but something like:

Quote:
but it becomes more expensive at high levels.
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Old 09-29-2018, 09:57 PM   #30
TippetsTX
 
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Default Re: IQ rise and talents

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne View Post
Experience points can be spent in several ways:
To improve your basic stats: ST, DX, or IQ. This will improve all talents and saving rolls associated with that stat, but it become expensive at high levels. Note that adding an extra IQ point does not automatically entitle the figure to another spell or talent.

OR

Experience points can be spent in several ways:
To improve your basic stats: ST, DX, or IQ. This will improve all talents and saving rolls associated with that stat, but it become expensive at high levels. Note that adding an extra IQ point does allow the figure to obtain another spell or talent.
Wow, I certainly hope the latter is the correct interpretation.
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