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Old 09-27-2018, 09:05 PM   #1
Skarg
 
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Default Need for average stats for non-humans

I understand giving 32-point starting levels for PCs who want to be Goblins, Gargoyles, or Reptile Men (for players who are concerned about starting out "equal" to other starting PCs). But the new Creatures section leaves out information for GMs about average members of those races to populate his world. New GMs may tend to think that the average members of these races are also 30 point characters, though that was not at all the case in original TFT. (Though I haven't read all of the new ITL yet, I assume it would be here in the Creatures section if it existed.)

Seems like this is missing information from the Creatures section.
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Old 09-28-2018, 09:40 AM   #2
larsdangly
 
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Default Re: Need for average stats for non-humans

I think the new suggestion of ~30 points as a normal human is a good guide, and extends in an obvious way to dwarves, elves and orcs. For the others, you would not do badly to just knock a couple of points off their pool of assignable stat points. I'd say reducing that pool by 4 points would result in a pretty disadvantaged NPC (someone who is really young, old, infirm, etc.), 2 would result in a typical person, 0 is a person of significant native ability (like a PC), and anything above 0 is someone to be reckoned with.

By they way, I think the suggestion that PC's start at 25 for the 'funnel' rules suggested in the Pyramid is way too low. Such characters are almost unplayable unless you make up a bunch of unique rules that only apply to them. To my mind the funnel should start at 28 if you want them all to be goofs and 29 or 30 if you want them to be normal adults. It sounds like quibbling over a few points, but just try to play test a 25 point character and see how far you get.
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Old 09-28-2018, 11:07 AM   #3
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Need for average stats for non-humans

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
I think the new suggestion of ~30 points as a normal human is a good guide, ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
... and extends in an obvious way to dwarves, elves and orcs.
It's not a new suggestion - it's in the original ITL.

Yes, since dwarves, elves and orcs have always been 32 points as starting PCs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
For the others, you would not do badly to just knock a couple of points off their pool of assignable stat points. I'd say reducing that pool by 4 points would result in a pretty disadvantaged NPC (someone who is really young, old, infirm, etc.), 2 would result in a typical person, 0 is a person of significant native ability (like a PC), and anything above 0 is someone to be reckoned with.
For goblins, yes.

For the others, NO.

PC Gargoyles in original ITL were ST 16 DX 11 IQ 8 (35 points for a typical gargoyle), not to mention flying and the stone skin. In old and new basic Melee, and the spell Summon Garygoyle in Wizard, and ITL (which it says summons "a regular Gargoyle" they are ST 20, DX 11 IQ 8 (39 points).

Reptile Men in original ITL are 38 points.

Also note that the body sizes for these have not changed. "About seven feet tall, heavily built, with shining scales, heavy claws, powerful jaws, and a large tail, a reptile man is formidable indeed." New ITL PC 32-point gargoyles and reptile men are weaklings compared to their regular folk. Clever new GMs may notice this for gargoyles since they are listed in other places, but reptile men, not so much.

It's clearly an omission, or else these are new diminutive sub-species.

Last edited by Skarg; 09-28-2018 at 11:14 AM.
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Old 10-01-2018, 08:37 PM   #4
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Default Re: Need for average stats for non-humans

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Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
PC Gargoyles in original ITL were ST 16 DX 11 IQ 8 (35 points for a typical gargoyle), not to mention flying and the stone skin. In old and new basic Melee, and the spell Summon Garygoyle in Wizard, and ITL (which it says summons "a regular Gargoyle" they are ST 20, DX 11 IQ 8 (39 points).

Reptile Men in original ITL are 38 points.

Also note that the body sizes for these have not changed. "About seven feet tall, heavily built, with shining scales, heavy claws, powerful jaws, and a large tail, a reptile man is formidable indeed." New ITL PC 32-point gargoyles and reptile men are weaklings compared to their regular folk. Clever new GMs may notice this for gargoyles since they are listed in other places, but reptile men, not so much.
I agree. I think that Gargoyles and Lizardmen should be more powerful starting off. As far as ALL the players wanting to play these bad-ass creatures just wasn't the case in my groups. They would select them if they felt a whim or a need, but it was rarely done.

and TFT isn't about mini-maxing anyways.
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Old 10-01-2018, 09:28 PM   #5
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Default Re: Need for average stats for non-humans

You guys know what I think. Justice for reptile men!
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Old 10-01-2018, 09:47 PM   #6
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Default Re: Need for average stats for non-humans

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You guys know what I think. Justice for reptile men!
Having to face human justice at every turn for just being born a reptile should be worth a few points.
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Old 10-02-2018, 01:24 AM   #7
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Need for average stats for non-humans

Yeah I had one player try a Reptile Man PC in my TFT campaigns, which he did just in one one-off experiment where he wanted to see what it would be like and went on a killing rampage, and then retired from playing that character.

There were some cool Reptile Man NPCs and nations in our campaigns though. I like them as originally written.

No one ever tried being a PC gargoyle. and gargoyles were considered not fit company by most humans in my campaigns, though there were some exceptions. I could see it possibly being rather fun.
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Old 10-02-2018, 08:01 AM   #8
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Default Re: Need for average stats for non-humans

Bring back "Handicaps in TFT" to buy up their ST with social discrimination?
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Old 10-02-2018, 09:19 AM   #9
larsdangly
 
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Default Re: Need for average stats for non-humans

The thing I wasn't crazy about re. original edition reptile men is that the stat allotment and rules made it obvious you should start at something like ST 14, DX and some armor, so every 7' tall hulking bipedal crocodile ends up as a super high DX fencer. They would be more manageable if they had the same or higher ST and fewer freely allotted points.
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Old 10-02-2018, 10:29 AM   #10
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Default Re: Need for average stats for non-humans

Why should gargoyles, reptile men and giants pay the same for each added ST point as they do for DX and IQ?

How about increase ST at half price and the other two at double cost?

Start Reptile men with ST 14, DX 8, IQ 8 and 8 added points. Each added ST point costs half a point (initially and from experience), the other two attributes cost double (initially and from experience).

So you could start with ST 14, DX 10 and IQ 10 or ST 18, DX 10 and IQ 8. And so on.

Added: Purchasing talents with exp also costs twice as much, but they get the standard talent&spells for their starting IQ at creation. Only two-thirds of a Reptile Man or Gargoyle's ST counts towards the extra exp. cost of raising attributes. Gargoyles are treated the same as Reptile Men for experience.

Giants pay triple for DX, IQ and added talents, but their ST is at one third cost and only a third of their ST counts towards the added exp. points required to raise an attribute.
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