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Old 09-26-2018, 04:32 PM   #21
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Misc. Spell questions

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Originally Posted by Chris Goodwin View Post
Fortunately (or not, depending on your point of view) this is all dependent on a 3/DX roll.

But the point of Aided ST is to be able to be used as ST. It's most commonly used to funnel a lot of ST into one caster so that they can cast a spell requiring more ST than one person typically has, but it's for sure additional ST. Someone aided to 100 ST over their base ST can cast a spell costing 100 ST, and it comes out of the aided ST; why not the same for wounds? (If you want to, as a GM you can specify that this only works when Aided ST is above the figure's natural ST value, but even so it still works as a buff for fighters...)
To me, the answer is clearly because it makes no sense to me and breaks my understanding of the game world, and feels gamey.

It seems to me like drawing energy from a magic Aid spell to power a magic spell makes sense, but it doesn't make sense that if you're injured while aided, that the injury would go away when the Aid wears off. I see the ST from Aid as helping the victim handle injury to 2 turns, but not that it makes injury that's done go away.



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Originally Posted by Chris Goodwin View Post
For the most part, those are straight out of original Advanced Melee. They've been modified slightly, and adding physicking is definitely new (but also seems to have been a common house rule). New ITL also makes a distinction between "mostly dead" and "dead dead" (below -5 ST) and limits the less effective methods to the "mostly dead" state.
Seems to me people in original Advanced Melee died the moment they hit 0 ST, no?

So now the use of original physicker talents and healing potions can save someone if they can get him/her back to 0 ST right away. I like that as the margin is still quite narrow (unless you have a lot of expensive healing potion handy) but nicely wider than the single ST point it was before.

Where's the part about below -5 ST?
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Old 09-26-2018, 05:08 PM   #22
Chris Goodwin
 
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Default Re: Misc. Spell questions

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Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
Seems to me people in original Advanced Melee died the moment they hit 0 ST, no?
Correct, AM p. 22. But...

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So now the use of original physicker talents and healing potions can save someone if they can get him/her back to 0 ST right away. I like that as the margin is still quite narrow (unless you have a lot of expensive healing potion handy) but nicely wider than the single ST point it was before.

Where's the part about below -5 ST?
-5 ST is in new ITL, p. 10, under "Heroic Magic Revival". Aside from the -5 ST, all of the conditions under that paragraph were the same as those in for death in general in AM p. 22, with the exception of Universal Antidote for poison. Greater Wish is specified in new ITL, where "wish" is specified in AM. New ITL specifies that a Freeze spell will stop the clock for as long as it's in effect, though that lasts for 2 to 12 turns. Presumably a self-powered Freeze magic item would keep it stopped.

New ITL p. 10 allows "Immediate Action" for figures that are "just barely dead", which by inference is at ST -4 or greater, assuming you can get to them immediately after the combat is over. Longer than that, up to an hour, is under "Heroic Magic Revival". Universal Antidote is under Immediate Action in new ITL

I would presume that using Aid to add ST would fall under "Immediate Action", and you'd need to add enough to get them to 0 ST; doing so would merely reset that clock. I would also presume that a magic item that adds ST would be enough, if it would get them to 0 or greater. Per Rule of 5, one of these items can only add a maximum of +5 ST, which interestingly meshes with -5 or below being under Heroic Magic Revival.

To summarize:

AM: 0 ST or below; Wish (unspecified), Revival spell, Revival potion, Universal Antidote (for poison). Requires within one hour. Loss of 5 attribute points.

New ITL, Immediate Action: -1 to -4 ST; first aid (Physicker or Master Physicker), Healing Potion, Universal Antidote (for potion or poison), must be "immediate" (i.e. as soon as possible after combat ends; GM has leeway, I'd rule up to 2-3 minutes, depending on circumstances). Explicitly, any or all of these can be combined. No ill effects after.

New ITL, Heroic Magic Revival: -5 ST or below; Greater Wish, Revival spell, Revival potion. Any time after "Immediate Action" has expired, up to one hour. Loss of 5 attribute points.

Oh, side note: neither original nor new TFT made any distinction between nonlethal and lethal damage; if you're reduced to death by any combination, you're dying. If and only if, some of that damage is the result of fatigue or exhaustion, then Drain Strength (from the caster or a volunteer -- same in AW and new ITL) could be used to heal it back, and if doing so were enough to bring them to 0 ST or higher I'd rule that they'd make it. This would fall under Immediate Action in new ITL, and probably wouldn't work for Heroic Magic Revival nor at all in old TFT.
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Old 09-26-2018, 05:25 PM   #23
Helborn
 
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Default Re: Misc. Spell questions

[QUOTE=Chris Goodwin
Oh, side note: neither original nor new TFT made any distinction between nonlethal and lethal damage; if you're reduced to death by any combination, you're dying.[/QUOTE]

Small correction. This is only true for lethal damage coming after non-lethal damage. You cannot drop below 0 ST by casting a spell or from subdual damage.
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Old 09-26-2018, 05:50 PM   #24
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Default Re: Misc. Spell questions

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Small correction. This is only true for lethal damage coming after non-lethal damage. You cannot drop below 0 ST by casting a spell or from subdual damage.
Where is subdual damage explained?
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Old 09-26-2018, 06:17 PM   #25
Chris Goodwin
 
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Default Re: Misc. Spell questions

N.B. If you're relying on a demon granting you a wish in order to raise a recently deceased comrade... demons don't just hand out wishes like Halloween candy. You need to either beat it in a fight or bargain with it (edit: this is incorrect per the rules, but if you fail the contest of wills you're in for a fight anyway...). If you're summoning a demon in order to raise a recently deceased comrade, you were probably in whatever fight they were in, so you're probably not in any condition to fight the demon. That leaves bargaining, and whatever bargain you strike will surely affect the raised character.
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Old 09-27-2018, 12:13 AM   #26
Helborn
 
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Default Re: Misc. Spell questions

Subdual damage is ITL pg 126 under Taking Prisoners.
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Old 09-27-2018, 01:32 PM   #27
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Misc. Spell questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Goodwin View Post
-5 ST is in new ITL, p. 10, under "Heroic Magic Revival". Aside from the -5 ST, all of the conditions under that paragraph were the same as those in for death in general in AM p. 22, with the exception of Universal Antidote for poison. Greater Wish is specified in new ITL, where "wish" is specified in AM. New ITL specifies that a Freeze spell will stop the clock for as long as it's in effect, though that lasts for 2 to 12 turns. Presumably a self-powered Freeze magic item would keep it stopped.

New ITL p. 10 allows "Immediate Action" for figures that are "just barely dead", which by inference is at ST -4 or greater, assuming you can get to them immediately after the combat is over. Longer than that, up to an hour, is under "Heroic Magic Revival". Universal Antidote is under Immediate Action in new ITL

I would presume that using Aid to add ST would fall under "Immediate Action", and you'd need to add enough to get them to 0 ST; doing so would merely reset that clock. I would also presume that a magic item that adds ST would be enough, if it would get them to 0 or greater. Per Rule of 5, one of these items can only add a maximum of +5 ST, which interestingly meshes with -5 or below being under Heroic Magic Revival.

To summarize:

AM: 0 ST or below; Wish (unspecified), Revival spell, Revival potion, Universal Antidote (for poison). Requires within one hour. Loss of 5 attribute points.

New ITL, Immediate Action: -1 to -4 ST; first aid (Physicker or Master Physicker), Healing Potion, Universal Antidote (for potion or poison), must be "immediate" (i.e. as soon as possible after combat ends; GM has leeway, I'd rule up to 2-3 minutes, depending on circumstances). Explicitly, any or all of these can be combined. No ill effects after.

New ITL, Heroic Magic Revival: -5 ST or below; Greater Wish, Revival spell, Revival potion. Any time after "Immediate Action" has expired, up to one hour. Loss of 5 attribute points.

Oh, side note: neither original nor new TFT made any distinction between nonlethal and lethal damage; if you're reduced to death by any combination, you're dying. If and only if, some of that damage is the result of fatigue or exhaustion, then Drain Strength (from the caster or a volunteer -- same in AW and new ITL) could be used to heal it back, and if doing so were enough to bring them to 0 ST or higher I'd rule that they'd make it. This would fall under Immediate Action in new ITL, and probably wouldn't work for Heroic Magic Revival nor at all in old TFT.
Yes, this is an awesome summary condensation of the rules, and matches my readings exactly. I'd want this (as you just wrote it under "to summarize" above, that I bolded) on my GM screen or quick notes!

Comments:

* A combination of Aid & Freeze spells look like they could keep someone fresh enough to buy a bit more time to at least for a while to go get more help or a healing potion or something in some cases - I can see that leading to some tense lifesaving efforts.

* The Freeze enchantment description shows that even without being self-powered, it is (by virtue of flavor description) an item that when worn, freezes someone indefinitely, so can now be used as a cryo healing device for people who are only at -4 or less.

* I'd also rule that the Aid spell can be used like you suggest Drain ST can, to do immediate action on the fatigue portion of someone's damage. I would even allow this on people whose fatigue (not wounds) brings them to -5 or lower. (I would probably house rule that fatigue doesn't kill in any case, but if I were not house ruling that, I'd at least let Aid work this way.)
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Old 09-27-2018, 10:11 PM   #28
Helborn
 
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Default Re: Misc. Spell questions

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Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
* I'd also rule that the Aid spell can be used like you suggest Drain ST can, to do immediate action on the fatigue portion of someone's damage. I would even allow this on people whose fatigue (not wounds) brings them to -5 or lower. (I would probably house rule that fatigue doesn't kill in any case, but if I were not house ruling that, I'd at least let Aid work this way.)
keep in mind that the ST gain from Aid only lasts 2 turns. After that it goes back down. I don't think that it will be very effective.
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Last edited by Helborn; 09-27-2018 at 10:12 PM. Reason: Clarified
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Old 09-28-2018, 01:43 AM   #29
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Misc. Spell questions

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Originally Posted by Helborn View Post
keep in mind that the ST gain from Aid only lasts 2 turns. After that it goes back down. I don't think that it will be very effective.
Oh wait, you're right. Aid would only be helpful for one of those desperate attempts to reset the clock on the immediate action deadline. I guess if you could keep someone barely alive for 15 minutes, they could also rest off one of their fatigue. If they were at -1 ST partly from fatigue, that could save their life. :-)
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Old 09-28-2018, 07:51 AM   #30
Helborn
 
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Default Re: Misc. Spell questions

The description of the Soothe Spell (ITL pg 25) states:

Soothe (T): Calms an upset person or animal. Especially useful for crying babies! Of course, if there is a reason for the baby to cry, it will start again soon. This spell does not change a diaper, though a properly cast Cleaning would. Cast on an animal, Soothe reduces by one die the difficulty of an Animal Handler attempt. Cost: 1 ST.

Question: There is no Cleaning Spell (I think there should be) and Cleansing does not make sense (you want to kill the baby? poop without germs is still dirty....) so .....?
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