Unpredictable/Predictable

[AlexanderHowl]

I wanted to share a new advantage/disadvantage with the community:

Unpredictable

Unpredictable is a leveled mundane mental advantage that represents that the thought patterns of an individual are highly unpredictable. When facing an individual with Unpredictable, opponents suffer a -2 to skill per level during combat, and they suffer a -2 to skill per level during Contests of Skill (opponents with Digital Mind double the penalty while opponents with Unpredictable halve the penalty).

Predictable

Predictable is a leveled mundane mental disadvantage that represents that the thought patterns of an individual are highly predictable. When facing an individual with Predictable, opponents gain a +2 to skill per level during combat, and they gain a +2 to skill per level during Contests of Skill (opponents with Digital Mind double the bonus while opponents with Predictable halve the bonus).

Unpredictable costs 25 CP/level while Predictable gives 25 CP/level. In realistic campaigns, a maximum of three levels of either are allowed, but up to six levels are allowable in cinematic campaigns.

So, what do you think? Are they too expensive? Are they too cheap? Would you use them in your campaigns?

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

I wanted to share a new advantage/disadvantage with the community:

Unpredictable

Unpredictable is a leveled mundane mental advantage that represents that the thought patterns of an individual are highly unpredictable. When facing an individual with Unpredictable, opponents suffer a -2 to skill per level during combat, and they suffer a -2 to skill per level during Contests of Skill (opponents with Digital Mind double the penalty while opponents with Unpredictable halve the penalty).

Predictable

Predictable is a leveled mundane mental disadvantage that represents that the thought patterns of an individual are highly predictable. When facing an individual with Predictable, opponents gain a +2 to skill per level during combat, and they gain a +2 to skill per level during Contests of Skill (opponents with Digital Mind double the bonus while opponents with Predictable halve the bonus).

Unpredictable costs 25 CP/level while Predictable gives 25 CP/level. In realistic campaigns, a maximum of three levels of either are allowed, but up to six levels are allowable in cinematic campaigns.

So, what do you think? Are they too expensive? Are they too cheap? Would you use them in your campaigns?

I like the idea, but I think they're too broad and powerful right now for me to allow in my campaigns. Rather than -2 to opponents skills in combat, I'd give a more measured combat bonus: something like opponents are at an additional -1 to defend following a successful Feint, Ruse, or Deceptive Attack. I'd similarly qualify the contest to "in contests where predicting the opponent's actions would matter" so you're not necessarily getting a bonus in pure contests of strength or will, etc....

I also wonder if it should be a single cost advantage rather than leveled. There's certainly going to be a point of diminishing returns on unpredictability.

[bocephus]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

I wanted to share a new advantage/disadvantage with the community:

Unpredictable

Unpredictable is a leveled mundane mental advantage that represents that the thought patterns of an individual are highly unpredictable. When facing an individual with Unpredictable, opponents suffer a -2 to skill per level during combat, and they suffer a -2 to skill per level during Contests of Skill (opponents with Digital Mind double the penalty while opponents with Unpredictable halve the penalty).

Predictable

Predictable is a leveled mundane mental disadvantage that represents that the thought patterns of an individual are highly predictable. When facing an individual with Predictable, opponents gain a +2 to skill per level during combat, and they gain a +2 to skill per level during Contests of Skill (opponents with Digital Mind double the bonus while opponents with Predictable halve the bonus).

Unpredictable costs 25 CP/level while Predictable gives 25 CP/level. In realistic campaigns, a maximum of three levels of either are allowed, but up to six levels are allowable in cinematic campaigns.

So, what do you think? Are they too expensive? Are they too cheap? Would you use them in your campaigns?

Too powerful/weak, too situational/broad.

As Aesir said I could see a 5point (or so) one time advantage to unlock some combat usefulness as a mod to feint, deceive, etc... but not a big mod and not nearly what you described. Your description borders on Luck really.

On the side of skill checks I don't see how being unpredictable would aid you in executing a skill, especially one that wasnt covered by Luck. I push more "unpredictably"?... I break the grapple "unpredictably"?.... Maybe an Intimidate or some sort of bluff, game play maybe... but really I would say Perk (once a day) for game play where bluffing is a factor. I don't think I would put it in my game as a combat mod for more than 5pts as described by Aesir, and for sure not something with levels.

Now if you playing a high TL game where your mind to mind in the matrix... OR a psionic campaign, that could be interesting and situational. I don't see quite how it could be implemented as a general GURPS core rule, but in a campaign I could see you adding that as an additional Table option for specific flavor. I still think its too powerful and overarching as you have written it. You would need to have either a specific limitation or a specific application in mind.

Your intention seems to be that being unpredictable is an advantage and being predictable is not. This really only has applications in "Game theory" contests. This also seems to follow that predictable is a losing methodology and I would argue that's not really true in most cases. Poker as an example, you can get new people that are complete chaos engines and will screw up the game play of experienced players for a time. They might even win for a time. Eventually they will either become predictable or average out losing. More likely they have hit a lucky streak of cards rather than winning based on unpredictability. Ultimately you still have to have winning cards to win, much like any contest. Introducing an unpredictable move at a crucial moment could be winning move, but just playing generally unpredictably is more an annoyance than a strategy.

That could be the base of your Advantage. X times a day you can use unpredictable in a versus contest to impose a defensive disadvantage IE a minus to your opponents active attempt. If your bluffing someone that isn't noticing your bluff its going to be pretty useless. OTOH if they are trying to see through your bluff then it could have value.

--------- in a sense of basic human interaction --------------

(I suspect this isn't a factor in what you are trying to play)
Your Predictable people would have more success in organizations as their reactions are dependable. I don't have to guess what you will do, I know you will follow established patterns. These are the people that get promoted to management faster, they find stable relationships, are welcomed into group activities easier. In a small group they do their job consistently.

Unpredictable people are often ostracized and/or loaners or at minimum passed over unless they are VERY advantageous to have around (rich, charismatic, genius, willing to work free). A fire fighter that wanders off to make a sandwich before the fridge gets too hot is unpredictable... A Mage that decides to try fighting only melee today which he has only basic skill with a staff, unpredictable. Unless he is a truly exceptional meat shield he's probably going to become a victim of friendly fire fairly quick.

----------- Game design -------------

To be an advantage it needs to impart positive effect and in such away that you only get a positive effect. Same with a Disadvantage. Add to that a 25 point cost is hardcore, thats a big advantage. Your giving up things like; seeing with no light present, a Vampiric Bite, Speaking with Animals, Precognition.... I see 25pt and I think along these lines.

What specifically are designing to overcome or introduce? You seem to be targeting Digital Mind as something to be opposed/overcome. Im curious where your thought process went to start creating this, if we knew that it might help more than just critiquing your proposal. A lot of what you would get functionally would come from already existing advantages Luck, just increasing skill in general or limiting the use of the offending advantage that you want to balance.

In a realistic campaign unpredictable is really a function of the dice or the player desires. Its not really a game mechanic for mostly apparent reasons, if the game mechanics aren't predictable then how the players try do something doesnt really matter. Its a challenge to roll play for sure, but it can be fun for a player to get the chance to just do it instead of thinking about it and deciding not to.

[Donny Brook]

There's something about these that just doesn't fit somehow, but I have had trouble figuring out what.

Mechanically we're looking at:

1) Imposing a general -2 on combat opponents and -2 on Contest opponents for [25].

2) Granting a general +2 to combat opponents and Contest opponents for [-25].

So first of all, I think there needs to be a clearer definition of when they apply and what they cover in both combat and Contests. Among things that need clarification are:

-What rolls in combat? Attacks? Parries? Readies? Non-combat skills? Self-control rolls? Reaction rolls?

-What combat situations? One on one? Multiple? Ranged? Unseen participants?

-What Contests? All skills and attributes? All situations?

As for cost, it should depend a lot on these questions, but as a quick comparator consider Enhanced Dodge [15] which gives you a +1 on an active-use defensive-only combat roll, so your proposed cost is way too low, IMO.

All that said, I think it's not a bad idea to have an Advantage along these lines. As suggested earlier, making it more specific might be a way to go. It could be a sort of selectable thing like Unpredictable (Melee Maneouvers), or Unpredictable (Influencing). For the Disadvantageous side, some thought should be given to how it might fit with the existing Hidebound.

[AlexanderHowl]

The price of the advantage was based on +2 DX, +2 IQ, and +2 HT [100 CP] minus +2 FP, +2 HP, and +1.00 Basic Speed [-30], for a total of 70 CP. Since it only applies to combat rolls and contests of skill, I halved the value, for a total of 35 CP. Since it provides a penalty rather than a bonus, which is less valuable to a character, I halved the value again, for a total of 17.5 CP. I then increased it to 25 CP for the purposes of preserving game balance. With the disadvantage, I just reversed the cost.

The combat skill penalty applies to any attack or defense (basically translating to -2 to hit and -1 to defend). Now, it could be argued that it is cheap compared to Enhanced Defenses, but that is because Enhanced Defenses are really expensive compared to their benefit. For example, +1 Enhanced Dodge is 15 CP, but +4 HT is only 40 CP. In the former case, I receive +1 Dodge. In the latter case, I also receive +1 Basic Move [worth 5 CP], +4 FP [worth 12 CP], and +4 to all HT-based skills and HT-based rolls [worth 20 CP if purchased as a Talent]. While I spend 25 CP more for the latter than the former, I receive 37 CP worth of benefit.

Of course, an argument could be made for 50 CP/level (or halving the effects), though I think anything more will make it not worthwhile compared to purchasing other traits. Doubling the cost of the advantage means doubling the value of the disadvantage, which would make the disadvantage imbalanced. Of course, you could keep the disadvantage at the same cost, but that violates the assumptions about the relation between positive and negative traits in GURPS.

[Anders]

Martial Arts has something similar to this on p. MA53. It's a Reputation for always using the same tactics. I would look to that for pricing and mechanism.

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by Anders

Martial Arts has something similar to this on p. MA53. It's a Reputation for always using the same tactics. I would look to that for pricing and mechanism.

Well, there's three free points!

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Since it only applies to combat rolls and contests of skill, I halved the value, for a total of 35 CP.

This doesn't seem like a 50% limitation to me. Combat and Contests are pretty much the only ways to exert your will over other characters, and they're probably much more than half of the rolls in most games. Even if they were only half of the rolls, Accessibility (1/2 the time) is only a 20% limitation.

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Since it provides a penalty rather than a bonus, which is less valuable to a character, I halved the value again, for a total of 17.5 points.

This a flaw in your reasoning.

Essentially, since this affects other people's rolls, you should base the price on Affliction: (Attribute Reduction -2 DX, -2 IQ, -2 ST), which starts at 15 points per level.

But you don't need a to hit roll and presumably it affects more than one person at a time so take Area Effect, +200% will get you a 16 yard radius. But you don't need to take an action or a Concentrate maneuvar to afflict someone, so you have to add Reduced time +20% or Aura or something else to make it a free action. I could go on and on (you probably need Cosmic Irresistable or Maladiction to avoid armor, etc..) but this is already at 37/Level and only one level lets your opponent resist with a HT or Will roll, so you'll want more levels...you do get some limitations too (Accessiblity: Only when attacking or contesting against me), but it still comes out as really expensive.

Actually, I think perhaps the simplist build would be: Ridiculous Luck (Aspected, only Opponents rolls in Combat and Contests -20%) (54). You don't need Wishing or Affects others because Luck already allows you to affect rolls that directly effect you.

[khorboth]

It looks like a big deal and it costs/gives lots of points. I don't see balance issues. I'm wondering though... How useful is it?

As with all new things, I ask what we're trying to accomplish and what we're trying to simulate. To me, this seems like someone who is good or bad at combat, but doesn't really hone in on predictability.

For combat predictability, I would start on MA49 with style familiarity. This is specifically for being able to predict an opponent's moves. It reduces the active defense penalty from feint and deceptive attack for a known style.

So, to move that into system:

------------

Predictable: When taking the Deceptive Attack option, your opponent your opponent receives a -1 to active defenses for every -3 penalty you apply to your attack instead of the normal -2. Caps apply as normal. If you successfully perform a feint, your opponent only receives half the normal penalty to defenses. If an opponent performs an evaluate maneuver, they receive an additional +1 to attack for the first round of evaluation.

Very Predictable: You may not perform Deceptive Attack or Feint maneuvers. When an opponent performs an evaluate maneuver, they receive an additional +2 to attack after the first round of evaluation.

Unpredictable: When taking the Deceptive Attack option or after a successful Feint, opponents receive an additional -1 penalty to their active defenses. If an opponent performs an evaluate maneuver, they receive +1 to attack for every two rounds spent evaluating instead of every round. Normal limits to bonuses apply.

Very Unpredictable: When taking the Deceptive Attack option or after a successful Feint, opponents receive an additional -2 penalty to their active defenses. Evaluate maneuvers are ineffective against you.

----------------

I think this captures the feel of predictability in combat. Note that we're limiting it to melee which is more in keeping with GURPS elsewhere. Again, I don't think there's anything wrong with the advantage/disadvantage as presented. It just... Didn't seem to hit what you were driving at.

Note: I didn't include pricing on these because I'm really not sure how much they'd be worth.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by khorboth

Predictable: When taking the Deceptive Attack option, your opponent your opponent receives a -1 to active defenses for every -3 penalty you apply to your attack instead of the normal -2. Caps apply as normal. If you successfully perform a feint, your opponent only receives half the normal penalty to defenses. If an opponent performs an evaluate maneuver, they receive an additional +1 to attack for the first round of evaluation.

Very Predictable: You may not perform Deceptive Attack or Feint maneuvers. When an opponent performs an evaluate maneuver, they receive an additional +2 to attack after the first round of evaluation.

Unpredictable: When taking the Deceptive Attack option or after a successful Feint, opponents receive an additional -1 penalty to their active defenses. If an opponent performs an evaluate maneuver, they receive +1 to attack for every two rounds spent evaluating instead of every round. Normal limits to bonuses apply.

Very Unpredictable: When taking the Deceptive Attack option or after a successful Feint, opponents receive an additional -2 penalty to their active defenses. Evaluate maneuvers are ineffective against you.

----------------

I think this captures the feel of predictability in combat. Note that we're limiting it to melee which is more in keeping with GURPS elsewhere. Again, I don't think there's anything wrong with the advantage/disadvantage as presented. It just... Didn't seem to hit what you were driving at.

Note: I didn't include pricing on these because I'm really not sure how much they'd be worth.

I actually really like this. In part because it's doing something pretty new--there's no existing advantage that does quite the same thing.

My gut instinct is +/- 10/level. Unpredictable doesn't seem quite as useful as Combat Reflexes or Daredevil, but close, while very unpredictable seems more useful.