Production Values

[tshiggins]

Originally Posted by David Johansen

I've been thinking about the Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying game. The production values are top notch, no question about it. The game is well designed. The art is beautiful. The cardstock is thick and heavy.

So here's the question: would you prefer a bit lower production values in exchange for more bang for your buck?

Say, black and white artwork in the books but more content, including the companion in the box for example. Sheets of uncut cardboard heroes but more of them and more variety, (don't kid yourself I'd pay for a box with a more complete set of the current ones), perhaps another sheet of less beautifully rendered battle maps and maybe a world map and a brief setting guide.

So, more bang for your buck or beautiful top notch everything?

Just as an FYI, this is a perpetual argument, on these forums, every time SJGames releases a product with any art or graphic design more sophisticated than stick figures and crayon drawings.

The DF line is designed to SELL, and sell to people who aren't already wonky GURPS geeks who want what they call "content," while criticizing what they call "flash" as a waste of space or money.

While I'm certain that SJGames will gladly take the money of any long-time GURPS player who wants to buy the DF boxed set, it's not actually FOR us. We already have this content. It's been available through PDFs and Pyramid articles, for years, now.

The DF boxed set is designed to draw in new players, who expect top-notch production values from FRPG publishers who normally spend serious bucks on professional presentation. Given the business goal, professional design and quality art were NOT optional.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by tshiggins

The DF boxed set is designed to draw in new players, who expect top-notch production values from FRPG publishers who normally spend serious bucks on professional presentation. Given the business goal, professional design and quality art were NOT optional.

I agree.
Without the high quality look and feel it wouldnt be as attractive to new players. Trouble is we didnt get enough on store shelves where that really shows.

[David Johansen]

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

Thing is, at least some of those production values are more bang for my buck. The heavy GM screen stands up much better than one made of thin cardstock. I see value in die-cut cardboard heroes because I can't cut them out wrong, and the plastic stands and thicker cardboard make them much more stable and less prone to getting knocked over in a sudden draft or if I bump the table. Higher-grade paper and binding mean a more durable product at the gaming table, where I don't have to worry about pages falling out or ink smearing. The only play this leaves for "lower production values" is maybe b&w artwork, which certainly costs less, but I'm willing to pay the extra for color.

But would you trade colour art for more content?

Anyhow, it's a beautiful set and I'm not complaining, but when it's called out as a failure by the manufacturer and that means we won't get another or even a reprint when they run out, I start wondering what could have been done better and what people would accept.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by RyanW

Personally, I like the black and white art found in most GURPS pdfs. I took to gaming when GURPS art meant Dan Smith.

I say bring back the SMIF! All the SMIF all the time!

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

Thing is, at least some of those production values are more bang for my buck.

Inversely, not a single thing you mentioned is useful to me.

I did enjoy the color art and Character quotes however, those evoke mood and theme well.

[mhd]

I'd be interested in how much the color is actually a factor these days. Your pool of artists has gotten bigger, as it's quite easy to hire someone from all over the world -- and I doubt that this had a negative impact on the price (sure, some RPG artists are known by name and actually help sell a book, but that's probably not the case for GURPS).

And while I was working in POD, hard-cover was a much bigger price issue than color, as there were still some manual steps done for that, whereas softcover binding is highly automated. Again, might've changed in the last few years. (Back when I was working with those systems, I would've preferred b/w POD, as that would mean better calibrated printers and thus better font quality)

On the other hand, POD used to be almost a non-issue when targeting new customers. But given how big online shopping is, not being on the shelves of your local FLGS might be more of a non-issue. If people click on your Amazon POD product after seeing a video on YouTube, that's good enough, too.

[David Johansen]

I think POD is the way of the future but there's no way for retailers to profit from it. I looked into doing it in house but between paying full price for the pdf, paper, and toner it's pretty unworkable.

[RogerBW]

Originally Posted by David Johansen

But would you trade colour art for more content?

Anyhow, it's a beautiful set and I'm not complaining, but when it's called out as a failure by the manufacturer and that means we won't get another or even a reprint when they run out, I start wondering what could have been done better and what people would accept.

Well, it's been established that the main reason for the financial failure was excessive production time/cost compared with the sales income.

The hypothetical larger DFRPG with monochrome art would have more content, thus more production time (and Kromm has said before that production effort goes up roughly as word count squared, because each bit has to be checked against each other bit). Against that, you might get more sales from the extra bit of content… or you might lose them from the gamers who are used to seeing their books in lush colour.

[AlexanderHowl]

i do not think that I have ever bought POD (though I have received POD gifts). I would much rather support a retailer through buying a physical book through them than pay the same amount for a POD. I tend to only buy RPG books if I can flip through them, which is something that you usually cannot do with POD.

[mhd]

Originally Posted by David Johansen

I think POD is the way of the future but there's no way for retailers to profit from it

Isn't there an option for POD where retailers don't have to pay full price? Probably not a margin that's sufficient to live on, but then again, they can't compete on a price level with online dealers anyway, and I'd be surprised if gamers didn't do the "browse locally, shop at Amazon" thing.

[David Johansen]

Not that I've ever found. On the other hand, I believe it will come because on-line retailers would also like access to brick and mortar customers. The model isn't there yet but it will come.