Goblins

[Skarg]

Sounds good to me (though I'd be curious if anyone had a vision of what a DX 4 goblin would be like).

I like the concept of ITL goblins and hobgoblins, and we had a lot of fun with them. We came up with some interesting amusing roles for hobgoblins and one GM friend made a series of IQ 6 talents for them.

Both goblins and hobgoblins can be somewhat challenging to play, or for a GM to figure out what they do that's effective, especially if you assume that the versions listed are above-average PC versions.

They could benefit a bit from a rule that has their armor weigh less since they're so small. They don't really have any offsetting advantages other than the goblin reputation for keeping their word.

They kind of test the low-end of the system.

Hobgoblins are described as being larger than goblins though if you compare starting-point fighter goblins to hobgoblins, if they put all their points into ST and DX they both have 20 total but a hobgoblin who does that will have IQ 6 so no normal weapon talents. so if they push their ST to higher than goblins can (13 or 14), they have subhuman DX and/or no weapon talents, so in practice it's not really much like they're effectively stronger than goblins at all. Memorable hobgoblin characters included idiot porters and comically-limited wizard apprentices. I wish they were a bit more effectively distinguished as larger/stronger than goblins, and perhaps that they both had some redeeming quality.

They also feel to me like a good argument for a rule which takes into account starting attribute levels somehow, such as having the experience points needed to raise an attribute be based on how much you've raised it since creation, or something.

[ecz]

Originally Posted by Steve Jackson

Snotlings are a real thing in, I believe, Warhammer.

yes they are.

they exist in Cidri as well, may be known with another name.
they are basically "lesser goblins". In other words sub-goblins. They are used as slaves and as expendable units in battle. The problem is they are prone to flee in combat as soon as they start to accumulate casualties and panics when they are wounded.

They can be used in many bizzarre tactis by their masters including being shot in groups of 4-5 by a special catapult directly on the enemy or sent in groups of 10 all tied together with chains to prevent they run away (they would run in random directions so lacking any coordination they tend to stay in the fight). Tipical snotling has ST 7- DX 7- IQ 6 - MA 12 and is shorter than an halfing. He uses a club or a knife, no armor, and tries HtH at first opportunity. They do not attack unless can outnmber the opponent at least 3/1 (or are forced to fight someway).

[Skarg]

One detail I have long wondered about is whether goblins are supposed to all have 12 fingers or not, and if so, how many toes they (and hobgoblins) have, because of the goblin in Tollenkar's Lair who's "all twelve fingers" are mentioned casually. I gathered that they did from that, though it's not mentioned in ITL. I suppose the answer would be that since Cidri is as it is, there are some goblin subspecies with 6 per hand and some with 5 (certainly true of my friends where in my campaign it's 6 and in campaigns of GMs who never read TL, it tends to be 5).

[larsdangly]

Maybe goblins are like cats, with their funny extra toes...

[ecz]

Originally Posted by Skarg

One detail I have long wondered about is whether goblins are supposed to all have 12 fingers or not, and if so, how many toes they (and hobgoblins) have, because of the goblin in Tollenkar's Lair who's "all twelve fingers" are mentioned casually. I gathered that they did from that, though it's not mentioned in ITL. I suppose the answer would be that since Cidri is as it is, there are some goblin subspecies with 6 per hand and some with 5 (certainly true of my friends where in my campaign it's 6 and in campaigns of GMs who never read TL, it tends to be 5).

yes, I confirm that in Cidri there are goblins with 5 (in my campaigns) and 6 (in yours) :-D

[ak_aramis]

Mr Jackson: Why not call the weak ones "lesser goblins" and the ITL ones 'greater goblins" - Essentially keeping both.

[Steve Jackson]

So maybe, for Hobgoblins:

These are big, stupid goblins. They are often found in the service of “real” goblins. Hobgoblins are afraid of goblins, and will never attack them unless commanded to by other goblins. Although bigger than goblins, they are smaller and weaker than most other races. They tend to be simple, brutal creatures, and do not keep their word as do Goblins.
A Hobgoblin character starts with ST 7, DX 8, and IQ 7, with 8 extra points added anywhere.

Yes, we may need some slightly-lower-ST weapons, though I'm happy with requiring very weak creatures to use daggers, as always. Just because a hobgoblin CAN go out there with ST 7 does not mean he should.

[DouglasCole]

For what it's worth, in my fae-heavy Dragon Heresy setting, there are

Goblins - small cannon fodder that are into mob tactics and sneak attacks
Hobgoblins - larger versions of goblins, man-sized and more dangerous
Hobs - hobgoblins specifically bred for battle
Bugbears - the nastiest in both temperament and ferocity, kind of the hob equivalent of a berserker

[Steve Jackson]

We haven't defined ogres or kobolds, either. Ogres might occupy the slot between human and giant in size. I have some minis that were intended as Giant skeletons for 28mm, but would pass just fine for hulking huge men (rather, the mortal remains of same) in 54. I think of them as skeletal ogres.

Kobolds have two threads that could be followed - the smaller cousins of dwarves, or the nuisancy stupid ravenous rabble followers of King Torg (All hail King Torg!) I think the rabble is more fun. Kind of like tiny prootwaddles who want to eat your liver.

I don't really want to rename either goblins or hobgoblins, but Moar Kreeturs is a good thing as long as they can have unique stories and personalities.

[malloyd]

It's always struck me as slightly odd that RPGs use hobgoblin to mean something bigger and meaner than goblins, while in folklore they tend to be smaller and occasionally are even helpful. More like a less friendly form of brownies than giant stupid goblins. I blame Tolkien.