Main-Gauche

[larsdangly]

There isn't a meaningful argument about what HEMA is: It's an acronym for specific organizations that you can join, pay dues to, and that sanction clubs and run events. A good comparison between armored cage cage fighting and HEMA might be between rugby and the NFL: rugby is a sport that looks kind of like football, but there is nothing you can do on a rugby pitch that will make you an employee of an NFL team. The guys doing MMA cage fights in plate armor are not part of the HEMA scene; as far as I know, there is little or no overlap between the groups. There are a lot of SCA people in HEMA, and the start of some SCA groups adopting HEMA sport combat practices. But even there they are different organizations doing different things.

[zot]

Originally Posted by RobW

[HOWITZER]
I defy -- DEFY -- anyone to watch a few of these videos and then suggest they would prefer to go into medieval style combat as an unarmored martial artist. Honestly the guy getting creamed with the buckler would be dead without a very good helmet (even then? Do we KNOW he lived?)

For myself I'd probably go with full tubular plate + double-vested helmet + metal buckler + hammer/pick.
[/HOWITZER]

Puts me in mind of one story about O-Sensei...

In the course of a discussion about martial arts, a disagreement arose between O-Sensei and a naval officer who was a fencing instructor. The officer challenged O-Sensei to a match, and attacked with a wooden sword. O-Sensei faced the officer unarmed, and won the match by evading blows until his attacker dropped from exhaustion. He later recalled that he could see the opponent's moves before they were executed, and that was the beginning of his enlightenment. He had defeated an armed attacker without hurting him--without even touching him.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Chris Rice

Wow! I like the look of that. Confirms my thought I'd rather have a spear or bill (or bow!) on a battlefield. Always better to outreach the enemy.

And a bit of a tangent, but here's a writeup of a longsword exchange in GURPS, showing the sheer amount of wow that can happen over a one second time scale.

https://gamingballistic.com/2014/09/...s-gets-it-rig/

[flankspeed]

Originally Posted by Steve Jackson

Sounds as though, to clean it up wile remaining compatible with existing shield rules, the MG should just be treated like a small shield except (advantage) you have a dagger in hand (disad) it does not protect in any way against missile attacks or the attack of a two-handed weapon.

I think simplicity and consistency almost demand the implementation of Steve's solution here unless changes are going to be made to core game mechanics, though I would only have the main-gauche bypassed by Missile Attacks (not two-handed weapons) to make interaction with the Two Weapons Talent easier to handle as detailed below. (I would love to have the Active Defenses of Block, Parry, and Dodge in TFT, but they would GURPS-ify the game too much.)

It seems necessary to also clarify that a main-gauche dagger can be used in a second, off-hand attack at -4 DX to both the main-hand and off-hand attack rolls, but then it may not be used to block any hits of damage on that turn.

Spiked small shields (i.e., bucklers) are also possible. They function as small shields unless used in an off-hand attack at the same -4 DX penalties to both attack rolls as described for a main-gauche. When used as a weapon, they inflict 1d-2 damage (one less than a dagger) and do not block any hits.

Two Weapons Talent would eliminate the DX penalty to the main-hand attack but the off-hand attack is still at -4 DX with a main-gauche or spiked shield. When using a normal-sized, one-handed melee weapon larger than a dagger in the off-hand, this Talent allows for the off-hand weapon to stop 2 hits of damage (but not from Missile Attacks). A main-gauche or spiked small shield still only stops 1 hit (though the shield would affect Missile Attacks).

Using two full-sized weapons and parrying with both while making NO attacks can block 4 hits, but if a main-gauche or spiked shield is used as the off-hand weapon, then they only block 3 hits total. Missile Attacks are only affected if the off-hand weapon is a spiked small shield, but the shield still only blocks 1 hit from such attacks, not 3 or 4.

NOTE: Remember that already having a dagger in hand is an advantage in HTH combat. Two-weapon fighters are able to focus on gaining specific advantages by wielding either two normal weapons, a normal weapon and a main-gauche dagger, or a normal weapon and a spiked small shield.

[ak_aramis]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

There isn't a meaningful argument about what HEMA is: It's an acronym for specific organizations that you can join, pay dues to, and that sanction clubs and run events. A good comparison between armored cage cage fighting and HEMA might be between rugby and the NFL: rugby is a sport that looks kind of like football, but there is nothing you can do on a rugby pitch that will make you an employee of an NFL team. The guys doing MMA cage fights in plate armor are not part of the HEMA scene; as far as I know, there is little or no overlap between the groups. There are a lot of SCA people in HEMA, and the start of some SCA groups adopting HEMA sport combat practices. But even there they are different organizations doing different things.

It's been a generic acronym since the early 90's. The Group is actually HEMAA or HEMA Alliance.

[VisceralShoe01]

My question about the MG is this. Why would anyone take a MG Iver a dagger if the dagger does 1d+2 in HTH combat, while the. MG still just does 1d-1 damage in the same situation? Also while the dagger still apparently has the same parrying capabilities as the MG. Or did I miss something? I have only gone through the basic melee rule book. So idk if anything is revised in ITL...

[VisceralShoe01]

*over a dagger

[VisceralShoe01]

Especially if characters are assumed to have a dagger by default in the first place?

[VisceralShoe01]

Also, there was a mention of there being a -2 to the users dx when using a MG. But I don't see that in the book anywhere, the the -4 to dx when using it in your off hand. Nor do I see anything about -dx for using any weapon. Just for armor and shields. Am I missing something?

[larsdangly]

Re. main-gauche vs. dagger; for most users (barring people with specialized talents the MG provides a point of protection (like a small shield) whereas the dagger does not.

Re. the -2 DX penalty rule, that was in the original Melee edition. It was edited out in the Legacy edition. I don't have all the details in front of me at the moment, but I believe there are actually 4 different 'official' treatments of the main gauche floating around: original Melee, original Advanced Melee, LE Melee and LE ITL. I'm pretty sure no two of these are exactly the same. Plus the LE version seems to have a typo in all representations of the main gauche in the weapon tables. So, basically, good luck!