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Old 12-05-2011, 10:53 AM   #1
Tyneras
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Kentucky, USA
Default Changing Rapid Fire

I must have been dreaming about GURPS (save me!), because I woke up with this idea almost fully formed.

Currently, if you fire a ton of bullets, your going to miss with a ton of bullets, even if the target is the (size of a) broad side of a barn from 10 yards away. Since recoil is really how much your shots scatter, why not link the Rapid Fire rules to that? Please note I haven't had a chance to test this out yet, so its probably too powerful in its current dream-forged form.

Shots per +1 to skill = 1 + Rcl - SM/2 (minimum 1)

Against a SM 0 target, you get numbers like this.

Code:
bonus RAW  Rcl 1  Rcl 2  Rcl 3
 +0   1-4     1   1-2    1-3
 +1   5-8     2   3      4
 +2   9-12    4   6      8
 +3   13-16   6   9      12
 +4   17-24   8   12     16
 +5   25-49   10  15     20
 +6   50-99   12  18     24
This should mean that you dont get machineguns missing an aircraft carrier 99% of the time from 20 feet away without resort to GM fiat. I'll have to play around with this when I get home, the local orcs use one-shot shattersand shotguns for boarding actions, and I'm not sure if I will need to add more NPC "body armor" to absorb the initial volley.
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Old 12-05-2011, 03:47 PM   #2
smurf
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Default Re: Changing Rapid Fire

eh?

Air Craft Carrier is about 300yards long.

+13

AFAIK the 20 yard penalty doesn't really count. All you can see in front of you is Air Craft Carrier.

So you have one of them fancy 100rof

+6

You get to aim

Maybe another +6

You have a bipod

+1

It's a lovely day for shooting air craft carriers and no one supsects you.

+6

You have a decent skill 12

Effective to 38

Maybe on a crit hit all shots hit!

Oh no you rolled a 10, 28 rounds hit.

The GM could rule that all missed shots did not hit the target that was aimed for but hit other bits of the Air Craft Carrier the grouping was a bit large maybe 3 yards a cross... you were good.

Mr Pig on the other hand has an M60

And only gets +2 bonus for RoF. An effective skill of say 32.

Oh no he rolled a 10, Rcl (guess is 2) you passed by 22/2 = 11 (down to 10) yeah all rounds hit.

I quite like the rules... especially the one if the rules are absurd ignore it and do the logical thing.

I'm not sure I want to play games with lots of people with some many automatic weapons it's just plane dangerous. Ah those PCs who want to live. :)
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Old 12-05-2011, 04:01 PM   #3
Langy
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: CA
Default Re: Changing Rapid Fire

Quote:
Originally Posted by smurf View Post
eh?

Air Craft Carrier is about 300yards long.

+13

AFAIK the 20 yard penalty doesn't really count. All you can see in front of you is Air Craft Carrier.
No, the 20 yard penalty definitely does still count.

Also, damned near only lasers have Rcl 1 - your effective-skill 38 shooter would only hit with 15 shots.





Anyways, the apparent reasoning behind the rapid fire rules is that they're all about hitting a 1 yard radius area, no matter what size your target is or how much that makes sense in the particular circumstances you're dealing with.
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Old 12-05-2011, 04:46 PM   #4
Snaps
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Provo, UT
Default Re: Changing Rapid Fire

Actually, there are specific rules for shooting large targets:

Quote:
-pg. 409
If your target is totally immobile (for instance, an inanimate object, or
someone who is completely restrained or unconscious) and has a Size
Modifier high enough to completely counteract the range penalty, a suc-
cessful attack roll means that half the shots fired (round up) hit. If the attack
succeeds by the weapon’s Recoil or more, all of the shots hit.
So the 300 yrd Aircraft Carrier gives you +13, the 20 yards away is -6 (Less than twice the bonus from its size). So by RAW if you made your roll by 3 you're hitting with every bullet from almost any gun made right now.

Since you'd be at +7 to hit just from its size I'd say your chances are pretty high.
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Old 12-05-2011, 04:47 PM   #5
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: Changing Rapid Fire

Quote:
Originally Posted by Langy View Post
Anyways, the apparent reasoning behind the rapid fire rules is that they're all about hitting a 1 yard radius area, no matter what size your target is or how much that makes sense in the particular circumstances you're dealing with.
Has that been asserted by any authoritative source? It doesn't make much sense. The fact that range and size modifiers cancel out exactly with scaling seems incompatible with that interpretation.
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Old 12-05-2011, 04:54 PM   #6
sir_pudding
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Default Re: Changing Rapid Fire

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Has that been asserted by any authoritative source?
Kromm's statement that the rules assume a point target doesn't count?
Quote:
It doesn't make much sense.
It does in the vast majority of skirmish combat between humans armed with smallarms, which is what the rules are really scaled towards in general.
Quote:
The fact that range and size modifiers cancel out exactly with scaling seems incompatible with that interpretation.
I don't see how. It's still easier to hit center of mass on a bigger target. For one thing, you can see it.
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Old 12-05-2011, 05:18 PM   #7
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: Changing Rapid Fire

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Kromm's statement that the rules assume a point target doesn't count?
It does, however (even though it was a reply to my post) I did not know that had happened.

Indicating that it did is helpful. Pointing out where even more so.

I still reject it as a profoundly useless design decision, but it does appear to be official.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
It does in the vast majority of skirmish combat between humans armed with smallarms, which is what the rules are really scaled towards in general.
It has no meaning in skirmish combat between humans armed with small arms, because a human is SM 0 and a point target. It only means anything when there's the possibility of shooting at something other than a point target.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
I don't see how. It's still easier to hit center of mass on a bigger target. For one thing, you can see it.
So you think it's equally hard to hit a point target on a 200 meter target at 10 miles and a 2 meter human at a tenth of a mile? Because that's what this interpretation means.
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Old 12-05-2011, 05:51 PM   #8
OldSam
 
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Default Re: Changing Rapid Fire

Quote:
Originally Posted by smurf View Post
The GM could rule that all missed shots did not hit the target that was aimed for but hit other bits of the Air Craft Carrier the grouping was a bit large maybe 3 yards a cross... you were good.
I remember that Kromm already explained that the number of "missed" rapid fire-shots doesn't mean that all these projectiles completely missed the target, so that's quite RAW! ;) A very important meaning of missed is just no damage to the target! For whatever reason...

Maybe some projectiles hit very hard armored parts, bounced off somehow, some really missed and gone somewhere else, maybe some bullets were of bad quality, some got stucked in the target's armor and couldn't penetrate, maybe some only scratched the surface... things like that.

Rapid fire is at least partly an abstract concept and if the question arises the GM should explain the reason why only x projectiles cause damage. Very often it's not that all the rest just missed the target completely...

Last edited by OldSam; 12-05-2011 at 05:57 PM.
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Old 12-05-2011, 10:54 PM   #9
Apache
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Default Re: Changing Rapid Fire

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaps View Post
Actually, there are specific rules for shooting large targets:



So the 300 yrd Aircraft Carrier gives you +13, the 20 yards away is -6 (Less than twice the bonus from its size). So by RAW if you made your roll by 3 you're hitting with every bullet from almost any gun made right now.

Since you'd be at +7 to hit just from its size I'd say your chances are pretty high.
Gentlemen.

Looks like Snaps wins the thread.
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Old 12-06-2011, 12:15 AM   #10
Tyneras
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Kentucky, USA
Default Re: Changing Rapid Fire

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSam View Post
I remember that Kromm already explained that the number of "missed" rapid fire-shots doesn't mean that all these projectiles completely missed the target, so that's quite RAW! ;) A very important meaning of missed is just no damage to the target! For whatever reason...

Maybe some projectiles hit very hard armored parts, bounced off somehow, some really missed and gone somewhere else, maybe some bullets were of bad quality, some got stucked in the target's armor and couldn't penetrate, maybe some only scratched the surface... things like that.

Rapid fire is at least partly an abstract concept and if the question arises the GM should explain the reason why only x projectiles cause damage. Very often it's not that all the rest just missed the target completely...
If thats the reason for the rapid fire RAW, then I'm dumping them right now, because that's garbage. Anything is better than that.
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