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Old 01-13-2023, 01:37 AM   #31
mburr0003
 
Join Date: Jun 2022
Default Re: Friends, Hirelings, and Side-Kicks

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Originally Posted by restlessgriffin View Post
You do realize Leadership is a REQUIRED skill for Knight and Holy Warrior!
You do realize it's a 12 right? So likely to fail in combat or stressful conditions.

And no one else has it as a required skill, so better hope you have either a Knight or Holy Warrior if you're deciding that Leadership is the only way to convince NPCs to do what the PC's want...


And if you check through the other Proffesions, no one (except Bards) really get any social skills above a 12 to start, which means they are meant to be rather terrible at social encounters, which aren't meant to be common in DFRPG.

Which is why when I'm not running "generic" DFRPG I give out more points to be used for buying more social skills, or simply making the few they get, slightly better.

That was the entire thrust of the first three sentences I wrote.

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If players have control of NPCs/hirelings, why would they EVER increase Leadership.
There are other reasons (Rallying Cry comes to mind), but mostly, and I say this from experience, make social skills broadly more useful (and required) or your Players will still just ignore Leadership. Trust me, if you run DFRPG the way it's meant to be (and so far you aren't doing anything off-book), PCs won't care about boosting tertiary Skills like Leadership, unless "being a leader of men" is the Character's shtick.



I allow anyone to buy any of the social skills at chargen (not just with their 5 Quirk points, but like I said, I give out more than 250 points for a bit more customization, or I use something more akin to Delvers to Grow instead of porffession templates), so to make Born War Leader have some more utility (it's a pretty subpar advantage, few Players want it or buy more of it) I allow it to treat Leadership like Diplomacy. So if a PC has both, then they can never make things worse by making a Leadership Reaction Roll. Also I add the Soldier skill to my games and have BWL add to it as well. I also use Tactics at the start of every fight to give advantages to the side that wins the Tactics roll* and I use Strategy to assist with planning long journey's or if the PCs actually try to plan out a mission before jumping into it.


* I've toyed with different things like adding to one side's Initiative, giving out bonus uses of Luck or Serendipity, etc. Otherwise a lot of these skills end up playing third fiddle and never get increased.
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Old 01-13-2023, 04:44 PM   #32
restlessgriffin
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Default Re: Friends, Hirelings, and Side-Kicks

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Originally Posted by Rolando View Post
What I do, but admittedly I don't really play classic dungeon crawls, is to give NPCs personality, names, appearance (things to differentiate them and remember them) and some core abilities.

In your example your players need or want a healer and maybe a squire, they don't have to be player character "classes", so they are not paladins, druids, etc, they are hirelings. NPC Nš1 is a fighter/healer (squire), in background may be paladin aspirant or just squire, in game terms it have healing skills at 12 to 14 and maybe some healing magic, also professional skills to do the job (tending horses, weapons and armors), maybe also some knowledge skills about religion and high society (all of them at 12).
Yep. Squires main role is hauling around all the knights extra gear and assisting him with it. As no magic ability, healing is limited to the squire as First-Aid. If doing Squire as a Holy Warrior, Jonas Suntemple (Miriams younger brother, also with same Sun based diety and temple order), then some "magical" faith based healing is available, but on a limited budget.

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NPC Nš2 is a swashbuckler, so besides the flamboyant personality and garish clothes it is good with some social interaction skills, have seafaring skills, maybe appraisal and low and high society skills (all at 12 to 14), also good with the sword and evading getting hit by way of acrobatics or parry.
Yep, less good with sword than PCs, pretty good with defenses though.

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you don't care about detailed stats, just the capabilities and everything else is narration and description.
I do care about detailed stats but that's just a personal choice, also just in case a PC dies, THEN I'd be willing to hand over one of the NPC hirelings as a temporary PC character.

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Game effect of these supporting characters is:
In combat both NPCs will take some of the baddies with them, so 8 orcs attack the party, 2 orcs will be trying to kill each character, but only the players will be actively rolling skills and defenses, the NPCs will only be narrated, NPC1 will be surviving by shield and armor while the NPC2 by dodging, parrying and laying insults to the orcs, the players must do the actual fighting and maybe when they go to help the hirelings there is one orc down and maybe the hireling have a cut or bruise, but you don't bother rolling attacks, defenses and damage for a fight between NPCs, just narrate some reasonable outcome.
I don't think I'd want to do that all the time, but that does seem a good way to speed up combat and keep the focus on PCs. Good suggestion. Thanks.

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Outside combat these NPCs will add some commentary in their expertise, or help making some interaction smoother, or even stealing something from someone (if the hireling have the skills), in those occasions you do roll for the NPC skill.

in this way the NPCs are great color and are there for all the narrative and roleplaying experience but are not cumbersome to play, and do add some skills and needed support.
OK, sounds good.

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If the hirelings know magic you do have to list their spell list and energy availability and take acute account of energy, also use the personality of the NPC, so the NPC may hold unto some energy or sacrifice more energy that what is healthy if that is what this particular NPC would do.
Noted!

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Also in a fight against a big baddie the NPCs will help distract and annoy the enemy, or even add some damage but it is all narrated not rolled and played, when the turn to act come for an NPC you narrate the outcome right away, you may roll if you want and make something special if a critical success or failure is rolled though, some players like to know the dice and not the GM is in command, but otherwise only the actual player characters are the ones doing the fight.

you add interesting situations and make the players appreciate their hirelings as characters and not as tools, but they are tools to make the game easier to game master and play.

OK, sounds good.
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Old 01-13-2023, 05:11 PM   #33
restlessgriffin
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Default Re: Friends, Hirelings, and Side-Kicks

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Originally Posted by mburr0003 View Post
You do realize it's a 12 right? So likely to fail in combat or stressful conditions.
12 is competent. It'll fail if they get overly complicated in the directions. If they properly prep the combatants the rolls will get a positive modifier. And yes, it's only a 12, which is one reason they want to INCREASE Leadership.

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And no one else has it as a required skill, so better hope you have either a Knight or Holy Warrior if you're deciding that Leadership is the only way to convince NPCs to do what the PC's want...
Not the only way, just the most directly applicable to combat. The NPC hirelings/side-kicks UNLIKE PCs are going to want to be lead. It's what they're there for!

[quote]And if you check through the other Proffesions, no one (except Bards) really get any social skills above a 12 to start, which means they are meant to be rather terrible at social encounters, which aren't meant to be common in DFRPG.

Yes, to START. Also it is good that Bard actually has SOMETHING to be good at.

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Which is why when I'm not running "generic" DFRPG I give out more points to be used for buying more social skills, or simply making the few they get, slightly better.
Which is why I have no issue running at the standard starting points and making it clear there WILL be social interaction and roleplaying even in COMBAT. Also note, it is good to have some failure, it provides conflict and drives future improvement.

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I allow anyone to buy any of the social skills at chargen (not just with their 5 Quirk points, but like I said, I give out more than 250 points for a bit more customization, or I use something more akin to Delvers to Grow instead of porffession templates), so to make Born War Leader have some more utility (it's a pretty subpar advantage, few Players want it or buy more of it) I allow it to treat Leadership like Diplomacy. So if a PC has both, then they can never make things worse by making a Leadership Reaction Roll. Also I add the Soldier skill to my games and have BWL add to it as well. I also use Tactics at the start of every fight to give advantages to the side that wins the Tactics roll* and I use Strategy to assist with planning long journey's or if the PCs actually try to plan out a mission before jumping into it.
Please expand on Leadership being used like Diplomacy? I may or may not want to do similar but you have my interest. Tactics sounds like pretty much RAW. Anyway, that's the way I've always viewed it.

Last edited by restlessgriffin; 01-16-2023 at 01:59 AM.
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Old 01-13-2023, 06:24 PM   #34
sjmdw45
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Default Re: Friends, Hirelings, and Side-Kicks

Quote:
Originally Posted by restlessgriffin View Post
Please expand on Leadership being used like Diplomacy? I may or may not want to do similar but you have my interest. Tactics sounds like pretty much RAW. Anyway, that's the way I've always viewed it.
Diplomacy is different from other influence rolls (Exploits pg 10) in that "Exception: If you used Diplomacy, the GM will also make a regular reaction roll and use the better of the two reactions."
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Old 01-15-2023, 01:40 AM   #35
mburr0003
 
Join Date: Jun 2022
Default Re: Friends, Hirelings, and Side-Kicks

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Originally Posted by restlessgriffin View Post
12 is competent. It'll fail if they get overly complicated in the directions.
It'll fail just under 40% of the time just being rolled, without penalties for low Loyalty or morale shattering events (like surprise attacks, half the Hirelings already being dead, etc).

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Tactics sounds like pretty much RAW. Anyway, that's the way I've always viewed it.
I added more to what Tactics does (trying different things over time), and give Strategy actual uses (mostly in the planning stage) as I've found if you hew to what little they do "by RAW" eventually Players realize just ignoring those skills and pumping the primary "dungeon delving skills" is more valuable.

It's the 'ye olde Thief' problem, the problem being Thief as a profession template is terrible and superfluous. So you either need to build your adventures around making the Thief uniquely useful* (mildly difficult and annoying) or accept that no one will want to play a Thief* (which is what I've done, and then toss int he stuff I normally would and let the PCs suffer for not having a Thief).


* The parallel here being either you need to make non-combat skills more broadly useful (more applications and more opportunities to use them) or accept that the PCs will prefer minor inconveniences for not having them as they focus more solely on the core delving skills for their professions.

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Yes, to START.
I've found it isn't just "to start'. If you run DFRPG "as it's meant", or even close to it, you'll find that combat and magic skills (and to a slightly lesser extent the physical delving skills) are the primary skills PCs will care about.

The "succeed or die" skills.

They will absolutely preference those skills as failing those skills means death, where failing a Social Skill rarely does.

So, as I've found, if you want them to respect Social Skills the stakes need to be a bit higher... which means if they're failing them all the time (12s really do suck), Players will feel as though they're being punished for making Characters by the book. It's something to think about and why I give out slightly more points so PCs can get to 13-14s in a few social and other Background skills. Because while those skills are rarely "succeed or die" skills, they come close.

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Also it is good that Bard actually has SOMETHING to be good at.
They aren't just 'good' at Social. They will wreck your attempt to make Social Skills broadly useful if there is a Bard in the party. They are so much better... it's like if you have a Knight and a party full of Wizards in a No Mana Zone. The Knight will rock, the Wizards will feel useless. The Bard is so good at social they will dominate any normal social encounter or test you face the group with, unless it's very penalized in which case no one but the Bard will even have a shot.

Bards completely wreck normal Social party dynamics.

Okay, at least that's been my experiences with Players making Very Handsome, very Charismatic Bards. If they go the high Bard Song, Luck, or Wealth route, your experience will likely differ.

And if a Player tries to get you to allow them to play a Bard of the Nymph race from DF 3 The Next Level, just say no.



Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmdw45 View Post
Diplomacy is different from other influence rolls (Exploits pg 10) in that "Exception: If you used Diplomacy, the GM will also make a regular reaction roll and use the better of the two reactions."
Huh. I'm so used to regular GURPS I didn't notice the shift to not making Reaction Rolls first, Influence rolls second. Hah, I still do it the old way, but yeah, I can see this being a strong shift to reduce rolls and preference PC skills...

Anyway, in this case if the PC has both Leadership and Born War Leader I treat Leadership the way Diplomacy works This makes the Knight and Holy Warrior able to give commands as well as the Wizard...

(Leadership is an IQ skill, Wizards tend to easily have very good Social Skills just by putting a point or two into those skills and thus are better than other templates that have to put in twice or more points to be as good. Wizards tend to be the biggest problems in my games with the "stepping on other's roles", both with Social skills and helping make Thief completely unnecessary.)
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Old 01-15-2023, 08:33 AM   #36
sjmdw45
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Default Re: Friends, Hirelings, and Side-Kicks

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Originally Posted by mburr0003 View Post
It'll fail just under 40% of the time just being rolled, without penalties for low Loyalty or morale shattering events (like surprise attacks, half the Hirelings already being dead, etc).
Nitpick: 12 or lower fails only 25% of the time, not 40%. 12 is actually pretty good IMO, though of course it depends on what's at stake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mburr0003 View Post
(Leadership is an IQ skill, Wizards tend to easily have very good Social Skills just by putting a point or two into those skills and thus are better than other templates that have to put in twice or more points to be as good. Wizards tend to be the biggest problems in my games with the "stepping on other's roles", both with Social skills and helping make Thief completely unnecessary.)
Bards, clerics, and druids are also good at rendering thieves unnecessary. In the case of leadership or tactics skill I'd recommend giving that responsibility to the cleric, both because it's thematic and because clerics need something to do while they're hiding safely in the rear. Playing general is as good an option as any.

"Sons of Mother Church, smite now the orcish hordes! For your wives and children's sake, stand fast, and may the One Above All guide your aim!"

Last edited by sjmdw45; 01-15-2023 at 08:49 AM.
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Old 01-16-2023, 09:16 PM   #37
restlessgriffin
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Default Re: Friends, Hirelings, and Side-Kicks

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Originally Posted by sjmdw45 View Post
Bards, clerics, and druids are also good at rendering thieves unnecessary. In the case of leadership or tactics skill I'd recommend giving that responsibility to the cleric, both because it's thematic and because clerics need something to do while they're hiding safely in the rear. Playing general is as good an option as any.
Why? Thieves mostly detect traps and disarm them, pick locks and open doors, sneak past sentries and backstab enemies. How do Bards, Clerics, and Druids replace these functions typically performed by thieves.
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Old 01-17-2023, 08:14 AM   #38
sjmdw45
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Default Re: Friends, Hirelings, and Side-Kicks

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Originally Posted by restlessgriffin View Post
Why? Thieves mostly detect traps and disarm them, pick locks and open doors, sneak past sentries and backstab enemies. How do Bards, Clerics, and Druids replace these functions typically performed by thieves.
Trap detection is based on Per, so e.g. a druid with one Quirk point in Traps plus a nice Keen (Sight) +5 spell from a bard or wizard detects at Traps-18, better than a Thief normally does (Per 14 +1 = Traps-15). Moreover the druid can do it all REMOTELY via Rider Within on a created animal or one controlled via Control Animal.

Trap-disarming (DX-based) and trap-creating (IQ-based) tend to be less important (e.g. avoid the trap or have a monkey or a wizard with Apportation set it off), but druids/bards/clerics/wizards are all good at trap creation anyway due to high IQ. Lockpicking and trap disarming can go on any high-DX character (Swashbucklers excel at important lockpicking due to Luck).

Sneaking past sentries: druids are best (Create Animal + Rider Within), bards are good (Stealth + Hush spell, or just Loyalty), clerics are not good. (Wizards with Wizard Eye or illusions with Initiative are even better than druids unless it's necessary to physically interact, e.g. open doors.)

Backstabbing enemies is just a subset of killing enemies, which almost anyone can do. E.g. an Elven Bard with Resist Sound on friendlies throws a Concussion and then uses Song of Humiliation to stun whoever made their HT-3 roll; or a druid's conjured wolves rip an enemy to shreds with All Out Attack (double); or a cleric invests enough in Innate Attack to reliably hit enemies in the face/skull with 2d6 Sun Bolt for 1 FP. And it's not like they can't do these things from a backstab--the elven bard in particular can succeed on a backstab roll most of the time, but maybe won't want to because backstabbing puts you in the middle of the enemies and leaves you vulnerable to being surrounded. But backstabbing isn't even restricted to thieves.

Anyway, in the context of this thread, Leadership and clerics is a good fit. (Ditto Tactics.)
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Old 01-17-2023, 03:52 PM   #39
mburr0003
 
Join Date: Jun 2022
Default Re: Friends, Hirelings, and Side-Kicks

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Originally Posted by restlessgriffin View Post
Why? Thieves mostly detect traps and disarm them, pick locks and open doors, sneak past sentries and backstab enemies. How do Bards, Clerics, and Druids replace these functions typically performed by thieves.
sjmdw45 does a great job of answering this in depth, but simply: High IQ characters replace half of what a Thief does and a high HP one replaces the other half.

Or just Barbarian it all (even sneaking, it's an average skill based on DX which Barbarian usually have at least 13 in).




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Originally Posted by sjmdw45 View Post
... a monkey ...
Whoa! We call them Barbarians now sir. Or easily tricked Hireling...

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Backstabbing enemies is just a subset of killing enemies, which almost anyone can do.
Yup, everyone but Thiefs...
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Old 01-17-2023, 10:05 PM   #40
Expy
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Default Re: Friends, Hirelings, and Side-Kicks

I've never been able to play as a PC in this system but I've always wanted to run a more social/leadership Knight. Lots of BWL talent, bit of appearance.

Two extra levels of Born War Leader and Attractive gives a total +6 on the initial roll to determine Loyalty for any fighter type, assuming you win the Leadership check for the extra +1. The IQ roll to find hirelings will be tough but other party members can lend complimentary rolls to help you, and you can roll Carousing or something to give yourself a bit of a buff also.

For combat, I think its best to leave the GM controlling but let the player decide how to train their hirelings to act. Then, if you want them to act outside their programming so to speak, you take a Do Nothing manoeuvre and make a Leadership check to give new orders. 62 pointers I'd expect to be treated like fodder, no complex turns; 125 can maybe throw something in now and then.

You could allow players to control hirelings/allies and tax them CP if they abuse that control (poor roleplaying), or step in if they're doing something out of character. I've never done it that way, but I've also never had a player wanting hordes of hired help. They way I saw it recommended that seemed interesting was player B controls Player A's minions and vice versa.

Last edited by Expy; 01-18-2023 at 07:04 AM.
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