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Old 12-09-2011, 09:14 AM   #171
cmdicely
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: Changing Rapid Fire

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
I'm curious how you figure this. I would have thought that since subsequent hits are determined by MoS on the original attack roll, they're influenced by all the same factors that influence the initial hit.
Since its based on margin of success divided by Rcl, the only factor that affects the marginal difficulty of achieving additional hits after the first is Rcl.

Its just as easy to get one more hit on the eye of a moving person at 1000 yards as to get one more hit on a moving Star Destroyer at 10 yards. The only difference is the difficulty of the first hit.
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Old 12-09-2011, 09:31 AM   #172
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Default Re: Changing Rapid Fire

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Originally Posted by Snaps View Post
Actually my half serious post a few pages back should solve this problem. All your player had to do was break up his shots into different groups and then put them all on the truck and driver. So that you would end up with something like this:

M134: ROF: 66!, Acc: 5 Lets say a Gunner (Machine Guns) skill of 16.
Shots: 1 group of 16 (+3 to hit), then 2 groups of 25 (+5 to hit). +5 from aiming.
Group 1: Aimed at the engine of the truck, Rolls a 10 and succeeds by 14. 8 rounds hit.
Group 2: Aimed at the scrotum of the driver. Rolls a 12, succeeds by 9. 4 bullets hit.
Group 3: Aimed at the gas tank. Rolls an 8 and succeeds by 13, 4 bullets hit.

That gives about 25% of the bullets hitting. I also think that missed bullets might still hit the truck or driver, just not what they are aimed at (since technically they take up the hexes next to the targets).
Surely you realize that this is an unabashed rules exploit. You might work around the 'where are my bullets going' issue, but...not any sort of good solution.
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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
None of the above says that in other circumstances, like hosing down a building, that there aren't WTF-inspiring cases. This seems particularly egregious for very high RoF weapons, when you need a margin of success of something like 60 in order to hit with all the shots in a burst.
Or 200, in extreme cases.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdicely View Post
Since its based on margin of success divided by Rcl, the only factor that affects the marginal difficulty of achieving additional hits after the first is Rcl.

Its just as easy to get one more hit on the eye of a moving person at 1000 yards as to get one more hit on a moving Star Destroyer at 10 yards. The only difference is the difficulty of the first hit.
Interesting reasoning. I don't think I agree with the interpretation though. The marginal difficulty is the same, yes, but it's not just the first hit that's changed by the modifiers. You might say something like the only difference is the first N hits, where N is the number you'd get on the worst roll that actually hits both targets.
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Old 12-09-2011, 09:50 AM   #173
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Default Re: Changing Rapid Fire

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Surely you realize that this is an unabashed rules exploit. You might work around the 'where are my bullets going' issue, but...not any sort of good solution.
In what way is it a rules exploit? The above player is firing at a truck and wants to take out the engine to keep it from going anywhere, he wants to take out the driver, then finally blow the thing up if he can just to make sure.

It's exactly what the rules were designed to do.

Now breaking up the shots into 66 groups of 1 bullet each. THAT might be an exploit...
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Old 12-09-2011, 09:59 AM   #174
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Default Re: Changing Rapid Fire

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Surely you realize that this is an unabashed rules exploit. You might work around the 'where are my bullets going' issue, but...not any sort of good solution.
The problem is that all that ought to be changing is the scale of resolution (you're still targeting the same vehicle and the same passengers), but you are, in fact, getting far better results. I can't blame a player for wanting to use the perfectly legal maneuver of targeting multiple targets if those rules give far better results.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Interesting reasoning. I don't think I agree with the interpretation though. The marginal difficulty is the same, yes, but it's not just the first hit that's changed by the modifiers. You might say something like the only difference is the first N hits, where N is the number you'd get on the worst roll that actually hits both targets.
The point is that those first few hits are usually an insignificant percentage of the total RoF with miniguns and other high RoF weapons. Basically, the way the rules handle those never felt realistic to me.
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Old 12-09-2011, 10:23 AM   #175
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Default Re: Changing Rapid Fire

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Originally Posted by Snaps View Post
In what way is it a rules exploit? The above player is firing at a truck and wants to take out the engine to keep it from going anywhere, he wants to take out the driver, then finally blow the thing up if he can just to make sure.

It's exactly what the rules were designed to do.

Now breaking up the shots into 66 groups of 1 bullet each. THAT might be an exploit...
I'm not saying you can't justify wanting to do that in terms other than 'because it exploits the broken Spraying Fire rules', but that's still what you're doing. And it's surely also the reason you suggested it...
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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
The problem is that all that ought to be changing is the scale of resolution (you're still targeting the same vehicle and the same passengers), but you are, in fact, getting far better results. I can't blame a player for wanting to use the perfectly legal maneuver of targeting multiple targets if those rules give far better results.
I can when it's the Spraying Fire rules, which allow you to make up to RoF discrete attacks at full skill in one round. Unless I'm specifically playing by 'RAW is RAW and I don't care if it makes sense'.
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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
The point is that those first few hits are usually an insignificant percentage of the total RoF with miniguns and other high RoF weapons. Basically, the way the rules handle those never felt realistic to me.
Yes-ish and absolutely respectively. However, I was talking quite specifically about cmdicely's interesting statement that it doesn't "take the arc occupied by the target into account in calculating hits beyond the first". The marginal difficulty to get another hit perspective is really useful, but the conclusion was slightly off.
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Old 12-09-2011, 10:37 AM   #176
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Default Re: Changing Rapid Fire

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
I can when it's the Spraying Fire rules, which allow you to make up to RoF discrete attacks at full skill in one round. Unless I'm specifically playing by 'RAW is RAW and I don't care if it makes sense'.
While breaking the RoF down to discrete 1 bullet attacks is abusive, no one was talking abou that here. Rather, the full 50-100 RoF would be broken down into several ca RoF 10 attacks. That is pretty much in line with reality, that is, the gunner would move the cone of fire around the vehicle to account for the passengers and to disable the vehicle.
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Old 12-09-2011, 10:43 AM   #177
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Default Re: Changing Rapid Fire

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I think I'd make it 1.5xAcc for mounted weapons due to all the benefits that TS gives mounted weapons.
Why?

It is perfectly realistic that mounted weapons are far more effective at laying down automatic fire than handheld or even braced ones. It is in line with most of the rules from TS to give it double base Acc in this example*. Note also 'base Acc'. This means that the various benefits from TS will not be double-counted in this figure.

*See, for example, Walking the Burst, where mounted weapons do indeed have twice the bonus that braced weapons do.
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Old 12-09-2011, 10:43 AM   #178
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Default Re: Changing Rapid Fire

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
While breaking the RoF down to discrete 1 bullet attacks is abusive, no one was talking abou that here. Rather, the full 50-100 RoF would be broken down into several ca RoF 10 attacks. That is pretty much in line with reality, that is, the gunner would move the cone of fire around the vehicle to account for the passengers and to disable the vehicle.
It doesn't stop being abusive if you break it down less, it just becomes slightly less effective at being abusive. You're making 10 attack rolls against different targets in one turn at no skill penalty beyond applying less RoF to each. Does that really seem right to you?

The idea of spraying fire is well and good, but the implementation?
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Old 12-09-2011, 11:33 AM   #179
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Default Re: Changing Rapid Fire

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
It doesn't stop being abusive if you break it down less, it just becomes slightly less effective at being abusive. You're making 10 attack rolls against different targets in one turn at no skill penalty beyond applying less RoF to each. Does that really seem right to you?

The idea of spraying fire is well and good, but the implementation?
The implementation makes it far superior to high RoF attacks on one target, yes. But other than flatly disallowing abusive cases where the attack is broken up into too many discrete attacks, I don't think it's all that unrealistic.

You attack at full skill, yes. Full skill for an unaimed attack, which is another way to say that you will miss unless you are at very close range and/or have a high RoF bonus.
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Old 12-09-2011, 07:03 PM   #180
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Default Re: Changing Rapid Fire

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Interesting reasoning. I don't think I agree with the interpretation though. The marginal difficulty is the same, yes, but it's not just the first hit that's changed by the modifiers.
It really is. If target arc was taken into account in the number of hits for Rapid Fire rather than just whether you hit at least once, there wouldn't be a need for the Rapid Fire vs. Close Stationary Targets special rule (which doesn't deal with the problem in general, but handles as a special case a few of the most egregious problems created by failing to take target arc into consideration.)

While its more approaching the right feel than a rigoursly grounded approach, the mechanism I suggest earlier in the thread of using the net size/range mod to get to a multiplier which is applied to the number of hits generated by the existing Rapid Fire rules is a quick patch that mitigates this.
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