The Dungeon Fantasy box set is great! But now I hunger for more...

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by lachimba

And why do you want SJ Games to commit to it without at least one test PDF?

For 40 years game companies have been doing this thing where they write, publish, print, box up, and sell entire games that are brand new and were never available before in a previous form before. Why is a test PDF something you feel is absolutely necessary?

The PDF model of publishing games has only come about recently in reaction to some market movements, however I fear that a model of "publish the PDF, if it sells well we'll revise and print it for real" suffers from selling the same exact thing to the same market multiple times. Do that too much and people start to get annoyed - either they won't buy into the PDF because "why bother to buy the beta version?" or won't buy the eventual printed game because "why buy something I already bought?"

[lachimba]

Originally Posted by ericbsmith

For 40 years game companies have been doing this thing where they write, publish, print, box up, and sell entire games that are brand new and were never available before in a previous form before. Why is a test PDF something you feel is absolutely necessary?

"

Past results are no guide to future results.

Regardless, I strongly dislike the "give business advice to SJ Games meme" so if Ive slipped into that I withdraw that part of my position.

What I do like is "give me this book because I want it/ its useful".

Its up to SJ Games to make the business decisions and fans to ask for what they want. If either of them start doing the other role then something has gone wrong.

Which leads me back to why do people really want a Soace Opera box set?

I suspect what they really want is the worked genre treatment and the boxed set is just the icing on the cake.

I think it is a lot to ask SJ Games to run a kickstarter etc etc for what could be a 34 page PDF that may then lead into said box set in two to three years.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by lachimba

Which leads me back to why do people really want a Soace Opera box set?

I suspect what they really want is the worked genre treatment and the boxed set is just the icing on the cake.

Well the idea was floated by SJG that if the DFRPG sold well they may do more so some of us are voicing our ideas of what we want or think may do well.
I would buy a good setting and crunch or gear books but a worked genre without those is of little to no interest to me.
The only thing I recall out of MH was the magic system and it was the reason I bought it.
AtE gadget and radiation rules
Action was for Bad, Chase rules and some other stuff but not the genre.
DF because I mostly play or run fantasy and I can use some of the material for my own non DF games.

Space Opera may have stuff I would buy it for but it wont be for a"worked genre" though I think it would be a good lure and bring in new people.
However my feeling is a MH boxed set would be the best seller.

EDIT: I dont expect or feel like SJG should follow my or anyones suggestions. However fan speculation is a fun exercise and its possible that someone gets an idea they want to use. After all a lot of authors are also on this forum.

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by lachimba

Which leads me back to why do people really want a Soace Opera box set?

Because Space Opera is one of the great pillars of American Literature and Cinema and it's always been a core of Roleplaying Games - Traveller, Star Trek, and Star Wars have always been popular RPG games. Because Blasters and Bug Guts, Space Pirates and Mysterious New Worlds are just plain fun.

Originally Posted by lachimba

I suspect what they really want is the worked genre treatment and the boxed set is just the icing on the cake.

I think it is a lot to ask SJ Games to run a kickstarter etc etc for what could be a 34 page PDF that may then lead into said box set in two to three years.

Space Opera is much larger than a single 34 page booklet. GURPS Traveller had eighteen 128+ page books, a 10 year online magazine, and a dozen more shorter books. And Traveller was just one slice of low-key Space Opera. There is a lot that can be done with Space Opera, and it has virtually limitless expansion possibilities. If it's not your favorite genre I can understand that but don't dismiss it because you don't like it, it is one of the core genre's of fiction and RPGs alike.

[lachimba]

Originally Posted by ericbsmith

Because Space Opera is one of the great pillars of American Literature and Cinema and it's always been a core of Roleplaying Games - Traveller, Star Trek, and Star Wars have always been popular RPG games. Because Blasters and Bug Guts, Space Pirates and Mysterious New Worlds are just plain fun.

Space Opera is much larger than a single 34 page booklet. GURPS Traveller had eighteen 128+ page books, a 10 year online magazine, and a dozen more shorter books. And Traveller was just one slice of low-key Space Opera. There is a lot that can be done with Space Opera, and it has virtually limitless expansion possibilities. If it's not your favorite genre I can understand that but don't dismiss it because you don't like it, it is one of the core genre's of fiction and RPGs alike.

Book one 34 pages Characters

Book two exploits

Book three Aliens


See a pattern here?

Originally Posted by Refplace

Well the idea was floated by SJG that if the DFRPG sold well they may do more so some of us are voicing our ideas of what we want or um.

This one?

Originally Posted by philreed

If all of the copies sell out before the end of the year, well, let me just be the first to say that I'll do all I can to push a sci-fi boxed set onto our schedule and make it happen.

Or a different time?


Sure and I have voiced my opinion that what most of you really want is the worked genre treatment. And you can have that sooner and still get a boxed set eventually.


I certainly have no issue with a worked treatment of Space Opera or even a boxed set. Im just clear that I dont need to get a boxed set to get what I really want.

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by lachimba

Book one 34 pages Characters

Book two exploits

Book three Aliens


See a pattern here?

OK, so a series of PDFs. And what I'm saying is why retread old ground by republishing an existing PDF line? And why wait three years for a series of Space Opera PDFs to first be published and then republish them in book/box form? Why not skip the entire middle process and just publish the box set? What's so magical about publishing a series of PDF first and then rewriting the entire thing to make a box set out of it?

[robertsconley]

Originally Posted by ericbsmith

Space Opera is much larger than a single 34 page booklet. GURPS Traveller had eighteen 128+ page books, a 10 year online magazine, and a dozen more shorter books. And Traveller was just one slice of low-key Space Opera. There is a lot that can be done with Space Opera, and it has virtually limitless expansion possibilities. If it's not your favorite genre I can understand that but don't dismiss it because you don't like it, it is one of the core genre's of fiction and RPGs alike.

This is over complicating the project. There are numerous examples of compact presentations of science fiction for tabletop roleplaying. Classic Traveller with only the 3 LBBs and the more recently White Star and Stars without Number.

I am not saying it easy, it harder to write something with brevity. But it has been done, and it can be done for GURPS Into the Black or whatever they decide to call it. Done in a way that does a lot of the work for people wanting to run a science fiction campaign with GURPS.

[robertsconley]

Originally Posted by philreed

If all of the copies sell out before the end of the year, well, let me just be the first to say that I'll do all I can to push a sci-fi boxed set onto our schedule and make it happen.

You won't get any argument from me.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by lachimba

I believe the magic rules in MH were a hefty rework and they have even had their own book now.

Those rules were the only reason i bought MH. And then on a whim I bought Action. And then I decided "just in case"* to start buying every other line... except DF as DF 1 turned me off (and I was hoping to vote "No more DF" with my lack of dollars**). But I was even won over to DF by DF 16!


I don't know where I'm going with this... maybe it's a vote for more "test lines"?



* 'In case" there were other excellent rules like the MH RPM system or Action 2 in the making and just needed a "hey look how well this stuff is doing" nudge.

** My unvote failed. Which is good because I got DF 16 despite trying to end the line with my lack of buying it.

I geuss the lesson here is to buy everything SJG makes for GURPS in case it's excellent?

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by robertsconley

This is over complicating the project. There are numerous examples of compact presentations of science fiction for tabletop roleplaying. Classic Traveller with only the 3 LBBs and the more recently White Star and Stars without Number.

I am not saying it easy, it harder to write something with brevity. But it has been done, and it can be done for GURPS Into the Black or whatever they decide to call it. Done in a way that does a lot of the work for people wanting to run a science fiction campaign with GURPS.

I very much read Eric as saying that if Traveller, which is only one example of Space Opera, could fill well over 2,300 pages, that a mere 34-page Pyramid issue (or whatever) was giving it short shrift as to what would or could go in a tightly-written boxed set. Meaning "you could do a core set and still have 2,000 pages of expansion yet to be written," which speaks to both the viability of a self-contained box, as well as knock-on properties by SJG or fans.