Two Weapons + Spike Shield?

[larsdangly]

Responses in ALL CAPS

Originally Posted by Skarg

I think the rules are spread between three (or more?) places and are not entirely consistent with each other.DEFINITELY CONFUSING BUT ONLY INCONSISTENT ON A COUPLE OF POINTS

The Two Weapons talent (on ITL 41) is the most liberal in suggesting anyone can fight with two weapons if they have not only a main gauche but also they could use an ordinary dagger in the left hand, or a spike shield. However it is also more restrictive than Left-Hand Weapons on ITL 111 in saying that a figure who wants to fight with two full weapons "must have this talent". THE ONLY SPECIFIC RULE EXPLAINING HOW A SPIKE SHIELD CAN BE USED TO DELIVER DAMAGE GIVES IT AS AN ADD-ON TO A SHIELD RUSH ATTACK, WHICH CLEARLY DOESN'T PERMIT OTHER ACCOMPANYING ATTACKS. SO, THIS SHOULD NOT BE THOUGHT OF AS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR AN OFF HANDED SECOND ATTACK. MAIN-GAUCHE RULES ARE CLEAR. LEFT HANDED DAGGER IS TOTALLY UNCLEAR; IN SOME PLACES GIVEN AS A SYNONYMOUS DESCRIPTION OF MAIN-GAUCHE, IN OTHERS (LIKE HERE) SOUNDS LIKE SOMETHING DIFFERENT FROM MAIN-GAUCHE. THE LEFT HANDED RULES CLEARLY STATE THAT YOU CAN FIGHT WITH TWO THINGS AT -6 FOR EACH WITHOUT TW TALENT. MY TAKE AWAY IS THAT THE PREAMBLE PARAGRAPH OF THE TW TALENT (THE PART BEFORE THE BULLET POINT RULES) IS A LOT OF NONSENSE THAT SHOULD BE IGNORED. IT IS INCONSISTENT WITH CLEARLY STATED RULES ELSEWHERE.

ITL 107 is the most restrictive, saying humanoid figures without Two Weapons can only make one attack. But I think it can be considered overruled by more specific rules. AGREED; THERE ARE SO MANY SPECIFIC INSTANCES WHERE TWO ATTACKS CAN BE DELIVERED, INCLUDING MAIN-GAUCHE, THE -6/-6 GENERAL OPTION, AND SEVERAL UNUSUAL WEAPONS. PLUS BOWS AT HIGH DX, OF COURSE.

The Left-Hand Weapons rule on ITL 111 I take to be more specific and therefore expands on/overrules ITL 107, but it only mentions main gauche and the Two Weapons talent, and adds that anyone can try to fight as in the Two Weapons talent but at -6 on each attack. AGREED, AND I ALSO TAKE THIS AS THE 'BASE' STATEMENT OF THE RULES

If I were only using the RAW Legacy Edition rules, I would say that the Two Weapons description is the most specific and detailed and overrides all the other rules except the part of ITL 111 which specifically elaborates on Two Weapons saying you actually can try to use two weapons but at -6 on each. I SUPPOSE, BUT THE TW TALENT INTRO PARAGRAPH CALLS OUT A LEFT HANDED DAGGER AS SOMETHING SPECIAL, BUT IT ISN'T DESCRIBED ANYWHERE ELSE (OTHER THAN WHEN USED AS A SYNONYM FOR A MAIN-GAUCHE), AND THE RESTRICTION HERE IS INCONSISTENT WITH ITL 111.

So to Legacy-RAW answer your questions:

Person with AdjDX 12, broadsword and spike shield, sword and shield talents but not two weapons

(a) What DX- on their second attack?
(b) Any DX- on their first attack?
(c) How much damage stopped if they parry with the spike shield?
(d) How much damage stopped if they parry with both weapons?

Answers:
(a)(b) They don't get a second attack. SJ left that in Legacy Edition by mistake.
(c)(d) 1 damage stopped as usual for a Spike Shield. They can Defend with it if they want for enemy 4/DX to hit.


Person with AdjDX 12, broadsword and dagger, sword talent but not two weapons

(a) What DX- on their second attack?
(b) Any DX- on their first attack?
(c) How much damage stopped if they parry with the dagger?
(d) How much damage stopped if they parry with both weapons?
(e) Is a dagger here exactly the same as a main gauche, or slightly different (since Main Gauche is 'listed' as a one point shield)?

(a)(b) GM discretion. I would either say there is no 2nd attack, or they can attack as with a main-gauche attack (-0 for the first attack, -4 with the second attack).
(c)(d) None. Only an actual main-gauche or Two Weapons talent stops damage.
(e) No, since the 1980 Advanced rules, a main gauche has always cost twice as much and weighed more than a dagger.


However, what I would tend to do is also consult the original 1980 Advanced rules to get more info on what Steve changed in the Legacy Edition, because doing so gives me options and also shows what the Two Weapons bit about Spike Shields is talking about.

That is, if you look at the original ITL or Advanced Melee weapon tables, you will find that the notes on Spike Shield read "If used as 2nd weapon, does 1 - 2 damage. DX -4." Aha! Now, since that note changed in Legacy Edition to "If used in shield rush, does 1d-2 damage." it seems to me that Steve probably was trying to edit out the ability to get a second attack from a spike shield (probably for simplicity), but missed the reference inside the Two Weapons talent description.
THAT'S A REASONABLE READING. IN THE ORIGINAL EDITION, THE SPIKE SHIELD WAS SORT OF LIKE A LOWER DAMAGE MAIN-GAUCHE THAT WORKS MORE GENERALLY AS A SHIELD. IN THE LEGACY EDITION, IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY; IT IS JUST A SHIELD THAT DOES DAMAGE ON A SHIELD RUSH

Also looking at Advanced Melee for how main gauche and a dagger in the left hand work, the situation is also quite different, and also Steve was trying to simplify it for Legacy Edition. In Advanced Melee, a figure attacking with a sword and a main gauche has -4 DX on both attacks.
AGREED; IT IS ONE OF THE MORE FRUSTRATING BITS OF RULES AMBIGUITY THAT THE NEW EDITION SAYS NOTHING CONCRETE ABOUT A DX PENALTY FOR THE PRIMARY ATTACK WHEN YOU MAKE THIS SECONDARY ATTACK, WITH THE SIMPLEST READING BEING THAT THERE ISN'T ONE. BUT THE OLD EDITION INCLUDED ONE. WE ARE NOT GETTING RESPONSES FROM SJG ABOUT THESE DETAILS, SO I THINK PEOPLE HAVE TO MAKE THEIR OWN RULINGS.

And in Advanced Melee, you can use two daggers in HTH, at -4 each.
THAT'S RIGHT; I'M NOT SURE WHY THAT OPTION WAS REMOVED, BUT IT DOESN'T BUG ME. IN GENERAL, TWO WEAPON FIGHTING IS TOO LIBERALLY SPRINKLED THROUGH ROLEPLAYING GAMES - IT IS SOMETHING THAT OCCURS IN RELEVANT HISTORICAL MARTIAL ARTS, BUT IS THE EXCEPTION RATHER THAN THE RULE.

However I don't see an elaboration on using a weapon and ordinary dagger in Advanced Melee - Two Weapons has the same language saying it's possible, but not what the mechanics are. The original weapon table does mention a section titled Combat with Daggers, but I think that's the section in AM with the HTH damage table, which I infer got renamed to "Combat with Bare Hands, Daggers, Cestus, or Club", which only talks about HTH damage.

As for your specific questions in the light of Advanced Melee, I would tend to allow both spike shields and normal daggers to do a second attack (normal daggers just don't stop any damage), but I would choose to play it as in Advanced Melee, where doing so puts both attacks at -4 DX.

THAT'S ALL REASONABLE, BUT I WOULD SAY DEPARTS ENOUGH FROM SPECIFIC RULES IN LEGACY EDITION THAT IT SHOULD BE CONSIDERED 'HOUSE RULES' RATHER THAN 'STANDARD RULES RULINGS'

How I would actually play would be to re-hash my favorite of the original and new rules, and/or invent how I want to play.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

IN GENERAL, TWO WEAPON FIGHTING IS TOO LIBERALLY SPRINKLED THROUGH ROLEPLAYING GAMES - IT IS SOMETHING THAT OCCURS IN RELEVANT HISTORICAL MARTIAL ARTS, BUT IS THE EXCEPTION RATHER THAN THE RULE.

Yeah, that's my feeling on two weapons use as well. i.e. I think it should be an unusual specialized option that calls for special training and has some drawbacks and not something that's better than (or even, just as good or easy as) conventional ways to use weapons.

[larsdangly]

This is one reason why I tend to follow a relatively strict reading of the RAW, Specifically, these are the only options I recognize for making two melee attacks in a turn:

1) Us a Main-gauche, following the clearly laid out rules
2) Use any two 1-H weapons, but with -6/-6 penalties
3) Learn the Two Weapons (or equivalently Fencing) talent and follow the options in the bulleted part of that talent description (ignoring generalized statements in the paragraph at the top)
4) Learn an Unusual Weapon talent that involves paired weapons (e.g., net and trident), and follow the specific rules for that set.

By this reading, there is nothing special about daggers that aren't also main-gauches, and nothing special about spike shields (other than the damage they do on a shield rush).

[MikMod]

Okay - so a RAW compatible combat options without TW would be:

Sword and Spike Shield + sword and shield talent

• Attack with Sword at normal DX, get 1 point of protection from front attacks and missiles
• Shield Rush at normal DX for possible 1-2 damage and a knockdown, still get 1 point of protection from front attacks and missiles

Sword and Main Gauche + only sword talent

• Attack with Sword at DX -1, get 1 point of protection from front attacks with 1 handed weapons only and get a second 'dagger' attack of (1-1) against the same target as the sword attack at DX -5 (one DX is lost throughout by using the Main Gauche)

Sword and Dagger + only sword talent

• Attack with Sword at normal DX, get no protection at all, get second dagger attack at same target at DX -4 for (1-1)

2 Swords + only sword talent

• One attack at normal DX while the other sword dangles around
• Two attacks both at DX -6 but can be different targets, no defensive options at all

These all seem like balanced options to me.

Thank you so much guys for all your thoughts and knowledge! You're awesome :)

[larsdangly]

That looks pretty close, but it is not clear whether or not the main-gauche imposes a -1 DX adjustment. The table has a typo, it isn't mentioned in the text, it's different from the original editions, and different from Melee and the printed fighter cards that came with the Legacy Edition. So, basically no one has any idea what we are supposed to do and we're all winging it.

Except, there is no RAW basis for attacking with an off handed dagger at -4 DX (your third option). That is a suggested house rule.

[MikMod]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

Except, there is no RAW basis for attacking with an off handed dagger at -4 DX (your third option). That is a suggested house rule.

Except the definition of Two Weapons talent, where it is listed alongside Main Gauche and Spike Shield as one of the 3 things anyone can use in their off hand.

I'm basically just saying it's a lightweight Main Gauche which doesn't stop a hit. As defined in ITL. Which might explain the '1' DX loss for MG on the shields table? I don't feel that's really the same as making a house rule. It's clearly allowed in TW talent...

[larsdangly]

Originally Posted by MikMod

Except the definition of Two Weapons talent, where it is listed alongside Main Gauche and Spike Shield as one of the 3 things anyone can use in their off hand.

I'm basically just saying it's a lightweight Main Gauche which doesn't stop a hit. As defined in ITL. Which might explain the '1' DX loss for MG on the shields table? I don't feel that's really the same as making a house rule. It's clearly allowed in TW talent...

But it never says HOW those three things can be used, and the two that are explained elsewhere in the rules (Main-gauche and spike shield) follow different rules. So, I dont think there is any case to be made that RAW explains how a dagger and sword work together for people who lack TW talent. Also, the DX penalty on the MG table is hard to interpret. There is no such penalty in Melee, and none of the fighter cards included in the Legacy Edition get a DX penalty from using a MG. There is no self-consistent answer here, but the weight of evidence suggests no DX penalty, and the tables are a typo.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by MikMod

Except the definition of Two Weapons talent, where it is listed alongside Main Gauche and Spike Shield as one of the 3 things anyone can use in their off hand.

I'm basically just saying it's a lightweight Main Gauche which doesn't stop a hit. As defined in ITL. Which might explain the '1' DX loss for MG on the shields table? I don't feel that's really the same as making a house rule. It's clearly allowed in TW talent...

I agree that this seems a reasonable interpretation to me even trying to be RAW.

I think it was the intention in original ITL (except in original TFT, all such attacks (main gauche, dagger, and spike shield) without Two Weapons would give a -4 to both the main attack and the second attack), though I think it (and the spike shield mention) is something Steve overlooked removing in his attempt to simplify Legacy Edition. (Personally, I don't feel any desire to simplify TFT, so I'd tend to let people use daggers and spike shields to do a second attack, though I think I like the original -4 DX on the primary attack as well.)

[larsdangly]

I could be happy with several different readings of these rules. The difficulty is that they are a jumble of clear, specific repetitions of the old rules, clear, specific changes from the old rules, vague statements - some consistent with old rules, some consistent with new rules and some consistent with neither - and omissions. It's a bit frustrating, but I think each table will have to make up their own version.

[Helborn]

Another option is to make 2 weapons restricted to specific weapons. E.g. Broadsword and Shortsword or Broadsword and Small Ax. Etc.

And require 2 weapons to be learned multiple times. This would be a house rule, definitely not RAW. But it might solve 2 weapons being overpowered.