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Old 11-12-2019, 12:59 PM   #11
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Hand to hand questions...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikMod View Post
That may be, but in many of these discussions around rules the specific section on the 'special situation' has always taken precedence over the 'general' rules of the options table - which has also been pretty comprehensively criticized.
Yes, and I think the wording of the Options list in Legacy (especially if you include the language that an option is selected when their time to "move" happens) contains the most misleading parts of the Legacy edition, the source of the most basic questions about how to play, and seems to be leading many people into play modes that I think were not intended and/or are really messy.

However in this case, I think option o) is preferable, because I feel (it's the intention and) HTH initiation is a very weak mechanic that allows any figure to cheese a slower armed opponent, and I think the barriers to that are important to retain, one of them being that an engaged figure needs to wait till their adjDX to try it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MikMod View Post
For instance, according to the specific section on HTH I can initiate HTH if I have a higher MA - as a separate situation to coming from behind, but you are saying the general rules about having to stop as soon as you are engaged should over ride the special rules on HTH.
No. I think that's what it has always meant, and continues to mean. Having higher MA is listed as one of the conditions that allows initiating HTH at all. It doesn't say if you have higher MA you can ignore engagement. It's not a question here of overriding - it's just that in order to initiate HTH, you need to satisfy one of those conditions.


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Originally Posted by MikMod View Post
That's not the only place where HTH is in contradiction to general rules - I'm sure it mentions in several places that you can never move onto anyone. There's even a list of exceptions which doesn't include HTH. But I think even from your perspective there are times when you CAN move onto a foe during movement to try HTH?
Yes, as I've written above, you can move up to 1/2 MA and enter through a non-front hex. (If you don't have higher MA and the foe isn't blocked against obstacles, it would need to be the rear hex.)
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Old 11-12-2019, 01:53 PM   #12
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Hand to hand questions...

Consider the impact on tactics for group combat where you have a mix of powerful skilled warriors who tend to wear leather armor or better, and more typical 28-33 point not so experienced fighters (who generally tend to be pretty ineffective wearing leather since it tends to drop their adjDX below 10).

The above roughly describes most of the years of TFT campaign play I have done, BTW. There are usually some experienced people and then many more not very experienced people fighting alongside them.

Normally, generally the most experienced people are the most dangerous. They tend to strike first, often hit, and often inflict wounds that give -2DX or knock down opponents. The less experienced figures act later, may miss, and often don't do all that much damage per hit.

Now consider what happens to smart tactics if you change the rules so anyone with higher MA can attempt HTH from the front during movement. Suddenly it makes all the sense in the world for the fodder with typical MA 10 to try to jump the experienced foes with MA 8 or less rather than wait and launch a probably ineffective attack probably after being hit. Suddenly they get a 67% chance of knocking down any lower-MA foe into HTH. Suddenly I want to recruit lots of unskilled hobgoblins for this purpose. It's no longer much fun to try to use weapons especially when wearing armor because maneuver combat is now often dominated by HTH attempts.

Oh no! It's large numbers of the hobgoblin kill corps:

Adolescent mobber:
ST 11-12 Dagger 1d-1 / 1d+1 in HTH
DX 8 (12 in HTH)
IQ 8
MA 12
Knife, Running

Stabber into HTH piles:
ST 13 Halberd 2d
DX 8 (12 when striking into HTH)
IQ 7
MA 10
Pole Weapons
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Old 11-12-2019, 01:56 PM   #13
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Hand to hand questions...

Is it easier to miss your friends when they turn their backs on you?
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Old 11-12-2019, 02:00 PM   #14
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Hand to hand questions...

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Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
Is it easier to miss your friends when they turn their backs on you?
No, but if you have a point, maybe explain it, and unless there's some reason it particularly applies to the topic of this thread, put it in a new thread?
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Old 11-12-2019, 02:25 PM   #15
larsdangly
 
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Default Re: Hand to hand questions...

I agree with Skarg's analysis. And even if you do force engaged combatants to wait till their action to attempt HTH it remains a powerful tactic. I think the end result of this approach is completely fair to both sides: If a group tries to swarm a slow but well armed combatant whichever of them is closest to his or her weapon is likely to get hurt, but it would be very tough to stop or avoid them all. And if one of the swarm comes at you out of left field there is a good chance you'll be tackled before you can do anything.
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Old 11-12-2019, 02:37 PM   #16
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Default Re: Hand to hand questions...

So it is easier to miss your buddy in the pile in HTH than when he is facing you while standing?

Say a giant is standing on your buddy, you get +4 DX to miss the man on the ground if you miss the giant at no DX adjustment?
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Old 11-12-2019, 07:59 PM   #17
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Hand to hand questions...

Henry, please continue that seemingly off-topic discussion in the thread I just made for it.
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Old 11-13-2019, 07:45 AM   #18
MikMod
 
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Default Re: Hand to hand questions...

I think we have drifted off the rules interpretation side of things into what seems 'fair' and 'balanced' for the game. As is say, HTH hasn't come up that often for us - not sure why! :)

However, surely if a group of noobs was facing an experienced swordsman, one of their very best tactics would be to rush him and (a) remove his long pointy weapon from the equation and (b) get him on the floor where he is at a real disadvantage? For the swordsman it would be, and should be, a huge fear. Unlike the movies, a real mob doesn't come at you one at a time in a convenient fashion, it's gonna be more like being dragged down by a zombie horde than Kill Bill in the restaurant. And fast zombies at that. Most people would be lucky to get one strike before going down. If unable to run or use terrain they're probably toast. But then TFT has always been realistic about using numbers to your advantage - that's what makes the tactical nature of it so good.

Does that make HTH 'too' powerful? I don't know as it's not something I've seen a lot of, but when we do 'jumping on someone' in movement (initiating HTH) it feels fairly realistic and hasn't so far created a problem.

Can you come up with an exploit? Probably. But does that look somewhat weird in the game, and lead to its own problems? Yeah, it does.

My guess would be that IRL a lone swordsman needs to scare the mob back. More a matter of morale than anything. I usually play my NPCs as being very fond of their life and limbs, so even with number advantage, each one has to weigh up the risk very carefully when they could, on a 6, get hit twice and probably killed. It's usually much better for the individual NPCs to either let someone else try :) or poke/provoke until the sword guy attacks someone, then defend against them and everyone else attacks.

I suppose in short, I don't feel in practice it's hugely different than getting jumped in actions, and either way the 'horde of hobgoblins' is and should be a fearsome situation to face, if they are all intent and prepared to go into HTH and have pole weapons. If you can hire and manage those hobgoblins, then yeah, it's a great tactic, whichever rules you follow. Is it 'too powerful' though?

Last edited by MikMod; 11-13-2019 at 07:52 AM.
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Old 11-13-2019, 08:42 AM   #19
larsdangly
 
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Default Re: Hand to hand questions...

The balance of power for the use of HTH is very good in TFT. My guess is that most new players don't think to do it, but everyone should have it in their menu of tactics. Similarly, big combatants should look at the movement phase of every turn as an opportunity to push back and overrun any inky-winky people in range
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Old 11-13-2019, 12:32 PM   #20
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Hand to hand questions...

Try playing out some sample games.

I've done quite a lot of playtesting, and playing out in campaigns, mob actions and prisoner escape attempts and mobs of ghouls and hobgoblin mob encounters in Grailquest and other situations where there is a lot of HTH.

In my experience, it is more than powerful enough a tactic even with the way I believe it is intended, as it was clearer in original Melee, and still I think intended in Legacy, that engaged figures must wait till their adjDX to attempt HTH.

Otherwise it would be much more obnoxious, and frequently involve the skills of fighters being ignored because movement comes before combat and HTH is an oversimplified 1-die roll that takes nothing into account.

Also, consider trying to face someone with a sword and you're unarmed and you want to jump on him. Do you fancy your odds should be only 1 in 6 of being hit by that sword? Especially if he has higher adjDX than you, why wouldn't he get to attack you as you move in from the front?
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