Reign of Steel - Will to Live: Are DR values too low?

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Jovus

There are tanks in UT; a TL10 hovertank claims to have 700/300 armor, but enough's been said about how UT's stats are somewhat suspect.

From what I can see so far there are a couple of possible alternatives to making these things scary on their own: one is to just evenhandedly double the armor, which makes for a cinematically-tough nut to crack; the other is to triple or quadruple the front armor, while leaving the other facings the same or lowering them by 100.

Ve2 is 3e but armor and kinetic energy or HEAT weapons are largely unchanged and as an expierinced user I am actually suspicious of that DR800 all-around. It is _very_ high. I have no reason to beleive that doubling or tripling it are even possible much less practical.

I can also tell you that the best portable armor piercer avaialble at tL9 is the 100mm TML doing either 6Dx30(3) or 6Dx10(10) HEAT. Double armor and pentration is baerely possible even when dealing with the best TL9 weaponry. Triple it and a 100mm ETC Tank Cannon won't penetrate.

It's your game and you can doa s you like but if you impriove the Jeggernaut's armor as much as you seem to be contemplating you'll make it immune to everything but micro-nukes. Why would the Zoneminds build such a weapon?

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Jovus

1) the robotank is seriously threatened by a TL8 weapon, but is at least late TL9 if not early TL10 (partially answered by the above)

The thing is that that's completely appropriate. Invulnerability isn't what tanks are about and never has been, and a couple TL superiority isn't enough to change that. A TL4 cannon could probably do a number on a TL6 tank, if you really got down to it!

However, a TL 9-10 cybertank is nonetheless a monster to a TL8 tank-hunter. Not an impervious one, no, but it probably has better situational awareness than an infantryman (not historically a strength of armor), its secondary weapons can trivially kill you (and its primary would simply be gratuitous) while a hit from 26 pounds of special-purpose shoulder-fired smart missile is only likely to hurt it, and its way faster than you are. And that of course is if the tank is operating alone, which is pretty dubious doctrine.

[apoc527]

Clearly Infinity needs to start supplying these Javelins to the resistance fighters...

[vierasmarius]

Along with the aforementioned RAP, you could consider giving the tank EMA as well (UT 187). Combined with Laminate armor, this effectively triples its DR vs shaped charges (for a limited number of uses). DR 240 is enough to shrug off the majority of Javelin hits. RAP adds another DR 200 vs shaped charges, raising effective DR to 260. This gives you a tank that's practically immune to HEAT attacks, but can be whittled down with successive hits.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

Along with the aforementioned RAP, you could consider giving the tank EMA as well (UT 187). Combined with Laminate armor, this effectively triples its DR vs shaped charges (for a limited number of uses). DR 240 is enough to shrug off the majority of Javelin hits. RAP adds another DR 200 vs shaped charges, raising effective DR to 260. This gives you a tank that's practically immune to HEAT attacks, but can be whittled down with successive hits.

I don't think so.

The RAP's DR200 v. HEAT is still divided by 10. That only takes 20 pts off of the first 63(10) attack. The remainder of that gets added to the 231 of the second attack to amke up to 273 (10) pts of damage.

You need an effective 2730 which even allowing for a 3x of EM+Laminate means you need DR 910 as you base before you add the RAP.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

I don't think so.

The RAP's DR200 v. HEAT is still divided by 10. That only takes 20 pts off of the first 63(10) attack. The remainder of that gets added to the 231 of the second attack to amke up to 273 (10) pts of damage.

You need an effective 2730 which even allowing for a 3x of EM+Laminate means you need DR 910 as you base before you add the RAP.

Oh I see, it's a double-warhead attack. IDHMBWM, so I was basing my math off the OP. Still, laminate + EMA seriously cuts down the damage sustained.

[Jovus]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

I don't think so.

The RAP's DR200 v. HEAT is still divided by 10. That only takes 20 pts off of the first 63(10) attack. The remainder of that gets added to the 231 of the second attack to amke up to 273 (10) pts of damage.

You need an effective 2730 which even allowing for a 3x of EM+Laminate means you need DR 910 as you base before you add the RAP.

This math is only the case if the Juggernaut isn't supplied with reactive armor. Mine, at least, would be.

I do see the points raised, though. I think I'll be happy with a combination of reactive armor paste and EMA. These things are designed for inter-AI warfare, and they're designed as tanks - not Ogres.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Jovus

This math is only the case if the Juggernaut isn't supplied with reactive armor. Mine, at least, would be.
.

No, I figured in the effect of RAP as featuired in UT. That defense is more intended to helpt handle small caliber HEMP rounds than dedicated anti-tank rounds.

RAP also screws your Radar stealth, your chamelon layer and probably your IR cloaking to at least some extent unless you put an entire extra layer of those measures on the outside or your RAP. It's in may ways a limited technology.

I don't reallu se why you want a threat that is imvulnerable to all TL8 weapons. Funtioning Javelins are not going to be at all common and if you give your PCs a sense of accomplishment every once in a while by letting them blow up a big robot, what's the harm? You're the GM. You can always make more robots.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

No, I figured in the effect of RAP as featuired in UT. That defense is more intended to helpt handle small caliber HEMP rounds than dedicated anti-tank rounds.

I think I've found the disconnect. You're assuming that the damage from the tandem warheads are added together to overcome armor. This is usually the case, except when Explosive Reactive Armor (such as the TL10 RAP) is present. If there is ERA, the first warhead detonates it allowing the second warhead to pass through unopposed. In this case, the first warhead (6dx3(10)) faces the full combination of EMA + Laminate + RAP, an effective DR 260 vs the damage of 63. The second warhead (6dx11(10)) only faces the EMA + Laminate armor, DR 240 vs damage 231. The missile will probably be repelled, but it will use up one charge of the RAP, and two charges of EMA.

I'm actually skeptical of the rule that the tandem warheads should ever act as one. This style of warhead is specifically designed to counter RAP, yet the rules make it actually more effective if there is no RAP. I'd probably houserule it to always be treated as separate explosives. But either way, a single Javelin would be unlikely to penetrate this warbot if it's reinforced with EMA and RAP.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

This style of warhead is specifically designed to counter RAP, yet the rules make it actually more effective if there is no RAP.

Er, you surely wouldn't expect the warhead to have more effect against a better protected target.