How powerful should Superiors be?

Omegonthesane · 08-16-2011, 07:38 AM

As written, Superiors are beyond-stat entities of GM fiat, who nonetheless are capable in principle of playing the same ground-level game as the PCs. This has great potential to break the setting if you think about it too hard.

In particular: All Archangels can perform the Kyriotate resonance, possessing Forces equal to their enormous total. All Archangels have skills and stats greater than any angel they could create. Therefore unless there is a meaningful cap on even Archangel Forces, every Force that goes into making the merest Reliever is a force they'd have been better off taping onto themselves for their Kyrio-Res Abuse Army. (Especially David, who can make himself a pile of expendable statue Vessels to animate as well.) Since Demon Princes cannot perform this trick, if Superior Forces in general are completely uncapped, Heaven is being held back only by being irrational cowards, which strikes me as horribly un-angelic (and given how ruthless I can be about "what an angel should do", that's generally a bad sign IMO).

I see three solutions to this.

The easy solution: There is indeed a cap on Superior Forces. It's not one you're going to reach as a player character, it's probably higher than the canon 18 Force cap for stattable celestials, but it's present, and it's significantly smaller than what's needed to replace the entire angelic presence on Earth with an army of stone kittens.
+: The game can be overthought without breaking and doesn't otherwise change.
-: Some players will be greatly annoyed at the thought that no amount of careful planning will let their high level party corporeally assassinate e.g. Belial.

The low-power solution: As suggested in GMG, Superiors are "just" 18-force celestials with ridiculous skill levels in sodding everything, Superior-only capabilities, more Essence capacity than most entire campaigns will ever see, and <expletive> bonuses from their Words. End result: they're functionally Bigger Than You, but not so strong that you can't trivially imagine how they could be brought low with the right combo of skills and Songs if they were on field duty. (Corporeal Charm + Corporeal Harmony = 12-strength mega-brute becomes 1-strength Stephen Hawking, for example, and in this model Baal would only have 12 strength... and presumably 6 levels of Large Weapon (Anything I Like Thank You Very Much) and a +6 Demon of The War bonus)
+: No fundamental changes *need* to be made, and you can totally have corporeal fist-fights with the Princes of Hell themselves and come out alive.
+: Easier to feel that your PCs have any meaning to their existence when the powers they work for physically cannot ever just step in and undo everything they did, as an actual mechanic rather than a line of fluff text forced in to preserve the game from overthinkers.
-: ...Apparently wanting to fight a Demon Prince directly is badwrongfun?

The Invisible Clergy solution: Going Superior is such an over-the-top state change that you stop meaningfully interacting with normal things, short of maintaining your Word. So, for example Eli is physically incapable of anything *but* creating on the corporeal realm, while Michael can only sustain full physical manifestation long enough for a short fight, and then only *to* fight. Presumably Lilith & Lucifer would be the exception here like she is sodding everywhere else, but Lilith's hardly a personal powerhouse anyway, while Lucifer's *meant* to be beyond even Superiors in apparent capability.
+: Again, you can overthink without breaking everything, and there's a solid reason for Archangels to not get their hands dirty - they literally can't, as opposed to the difficult to swallow "oh they can't because Disturbance even though they're all capable of much more precision than that given what Songs and Resonances they can pull out".
-: You're breaking the universe's rules every time a Superior interacts directly with combat or action sequences, and potentially breaking them every time Eli fiddles with an object to make an artefact.

The aggravating bit is, most of my local group seem to prefer Option Four: Shut up and never question the state of things, and have yet to get a logical way around the Kyrio-Kitten Army exploit that doesn't even answer to Option One.

Jason · 08-16-2011, 08:36 AM

I interpreted the GMG as some combination of these, actually. (And a reminder: it does say that becoming a Superior is such a major leap in power and existence that it's not JUST being an 18-Force celestial with a bunch of Word Forces and access to other resonances. They can ALL be in multiple places, and realms of existence, at once.)

I do try to make clear to my players that they will never succeed in assassinating a Prince without direct intervention from an Archangel. And even in that case, THEY'RE the backup for the Archangel, not the other way around. After all, Superiors and their Words are basically the pillars of the setting, and walking plot devices. If one dies, it's a massive change to the canon, and adds a level of complexity to the stuff the players need to memorize as distinct from the rule books they already own. And seeing as how my own players can't even remember all the names of the Bands and all the Princes' names and Words, I'm hesitant to make such changes unless it's for an entirely off-the-wall heretical game with the most experienced of them.

(And yes, I do sometimes quiz my friends on Band resonances.) :-P

Omegonthesane · 08-16-2011, 08:43 AM

Walking plot pillars they are, and I wouldn't expect a player party to *celestially* assassinate a Demon Prince without it being the focus of an entire campaign. But, especially given Superiors have their multi-manifesting ability, and the plot device of Vessels to allow you to kill demons without removing them from the setting, I feel high-level combats seriously including a vessel (not a Vassal) of Baal or Michael heightens the awesome without breaking the setting.

(Plus, when the enemy successfully summons their Demon Prince, under options 2 & potentially 1 you can seriously have that Demon Prince manifest in a Vessel without it being the end for every angel in sight.)

I didn't so much forget the multi-manifesting as think it went without saying. Going Superior's a massive state change; I tend to feel most of the "I can do this because I'm a Superior" abilities are orthogonal to their raw power, albeit dependent on raw power to fuel them. Esp. given the GMG explicitly cites the possibility of a celestial gaining the pure power levels [stats, Songs, & Essence capacity, for those who don't like Dragonball Z terminology :P] of a Superior without the skills and abilities that make one a Superior.

As written, even for a permanent assassination, it's difficult to think how the PCs could even remotely be backup for an Archangel on a Gank Belial mission - like bringing a beehive as backup for the Hulk fighting the Abomination. That's not the same thing as a carefully planned removal of one comparatively piddly (though still exceedingly scary for PCs) vessel of a Superior that's running around, thus motivating Superiors to not just casually run around in Vessels even when it's really important.

(The GMG has lots of stuff about the options; it spells out the houserule version where Archangels have actual stats that you can interact with. That still makes soul-killing them ridiculously harder than body-killing them by RAW, since they're Uber Word-bound and thus can haemhorrage Word-Forces instead of losing actual stats, whereas you can't.)

thorr-kan · 08-16-2011, 09:19 AM

If I ever run an IN game, Superior manifestations will be 18-Force angels with 20 Word Forces (GMG), all their Attunements and Songs, Vessel/6, Toughness, Charisma, Role/6, and Status/6.

That gives cunning and powerful PCs a *chance* to defeat a Superior, even if it's only a manifestation.

But then, I like "Horatio at the bridge" scenarios.

JCD · 08-16-2011, 11:38 AM

I would split the difference.

I would say a Manifestation of a Superior is 18 forces with all the bells and whistles and go from there.

So chopping off a piece of a Superior is an accomplishment, but not the final straw for them. This gives the PCs a role if the object of an adventure is to cack Belial.

If you can kill all his manifestations, then he dies. Unfortunately, he is smart enough to NOT just sit still. So you need to arrange for them to be hit simultaneously, or have a Superior or two help....and even then, you might just weaken them immensely. And ususally MOST Superiors keeps one left in Heaven/Hell as a back up. Which means you might need to arrange an attack on hostile territory.

Azel · 08-16-2011, 11:51 AM

Unlikely, because it breaks setting conceit.

Firstly: "Every manifestation requires a temporary investment of some of the Superior's Forces, splitting them up between manifestations, much as a Kyriotate does. Each one also divides the Superior's concentration. How many manifestations are possible depends on the Superior, but most find it difficult to maintain more than a handful at a time. Kyriotate Archangels can easily handle a dozen or more at once, while some Superiors, particularly Shedite Princes, don't like to split themselves up at all." (GMG, p.99)

Secondly: The world's a big place, and any finite number pales in comparison. Further, recommended IN setting has it that celestials don't outnumber humans. Any single entity is going to be taxed beyond their abilities without some help (besides God - and one can argue, even He/She/It delegates). So besides the GMG defining Superiors' concentration to be a more finite resource than their forces, even direct forces cannot micromanage enough resources.

So sure, an Archangel can possess multiple hosts quite easily (whether you limit this to a handful or house rule it to max forces). But think about it. Even at 5000 forces (ginormous! hugantic! emongous!), that's only 1000 humans. Powerful? Immensely. But this is the Great War, Earth is very big, and humans have likely been over 1 million population globally for longer than our written history. Less than one person per 1,000 can make an impact, but really, in the end they're outnumbered. Unless...

Thirdly: ... unless you have gross displays of Superior power. And that breaches another setting conceit of celestial Cold War, and disapproval by the Symphony over direct non-corporeal influence. Grotesque displays of power on such a scale will only serve to attract in-kind responses, which rapidly devolves the setting. Humans become irrelevant pawns and the Apocalypse will become nigh. This displeases God, registered via Symphonic disturbance, who really cares about humans (some may argue cares for them more so than celestials) and wanted a laissez faire approach towards them. And really, where's the Archangelic behavior in disobeying God?

So, yes, I see where you can find the setting danger if you ruled Superiors (particularly Archangels) could do the things you believe they can. But pretty much the setting says they couldn't, wouldn't, and shouldn't. So feel free to have fun with them without fear! :)

Jason · 08-16-2011, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCD

If you can kill all his manifestations, then he dies. Unfortunately, he is smart enough to NOT just sit still. So you need to arrange for them to be hit simultaneously, or have a Superior or two help....and even then, you might just weaken them immensely. And ususally MOST Superiors keeps one left in Heaven/Hell as a back up. Which means you might need to arrange an attack on hostile territory.

Wouldn't he have to go celestial from EVERY vessel to utterly destroy him? Otherwise, the best you could do would be to send him back to Hell (presumably in Trauma) ... unless you could somehow also destroy his Heart. I'm not sure how long most Princes would stick around Limbo in that case. (I ran a game in which Mariel had been there since being "eaten" by Haagenti, but of all Princes, she's the one who'd feel most at home there.)

This raises another question, of course: how do you lure ALL of a Prince's Earthly manifestations to predictable places in the Symphony? The horrifying answer, perhaps, is to simultaneously do MANY things that could spawn infernal Tethers to his Word ... but he has to show up*personally to anchor them. In an especially dark/low contrast game, I could see Michael or Gabriel orchestrating a nuclear conflict just to wipe out Belial once and for all...

Omegonthesane · 08-16-2011, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azel

Unlikely, because it breaks setting conceit.

That's a big part of why I posted this; the logical result of Heaven doing everything in its power to destroy the demonic presence on Earth, which they need to be doing almost regardless of contrast because they're fighting a war down here, breaks the assumptions of the setting; and therefore, additional assumptions need to be made to preserve it.

(The being able to throw Princes at your party without murderising them and without having to claim the Prince held back is just a bonus.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azel

Firstly: "Every manifestation requires a temporary investment of some of the Superior's Forces, splitting them up between manifestations, much as a Kyriotate does. Each one also divides the Superior's concentration. How many manifestations are possible depends on the Superior, but most find it difficult to maintain more than a handful at a time. Kyriotate Archangels can easily handle a dozen or more at once, while some Superiors, particularly Shedite Princes, don't like to split themselves up at all." (GMG, p.99)

I find it highly amusing that apparently it's even impressive among Superiors for a Kyriotate Archangel to have 12 manifestations, when 12 manifestations is trivial for a Kyriotate of Jordi, and doesn't divide their concentration in any way provided they remain in one realm. If it was intended to, I feel there would have to be game rules saying so, since having your concentration divided 36 ways (as is 100% possible with a corporeal-heavy Jordi Kyrio) would be critical in mortal combat, which is where rules are most likely to be used.

(To be fair, for this to really break all cold war analogies is massively dependent on every Archangel's innate archangelic ability to use Kyriotate resonance. Remove that, and the inefficiencies of their innate archangelic ability to manifest in many places are easier to swallow, but their being all-powerful even when compared to PCs, let alone objectively, still adds nothing to the setting but the ability to cock-block player actions).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azel

Secondly: The world's a big place, and any finite number pales in comparison. Further, recommended IN setting has it that celestials don't outnumber humans. Any single entity is going to be taxed beyond their abilities without some help (besides God - and one can argue, even He/She/It delegates). So besides the GMG defining Superiors' concentration to be a more finite resource than their forces, even direct forces cannot micromanage enough resources.

There's more than one Archangel; I'd assume their ability to concentrate goes up with their number of Forces, especially when it's done with Kyriotate resonance abuse rather than presumably less efficient Archangel manifestation. From where I'm looking, they end up needing one manifestation in Heaven, one manifestation on Earth that's abusing Kyriotate resonance to animate millions - and I mean millions - of humans or stone vessels without compromising its concentration, and maybe one manifestation on the ethereal realm if they don't trust Blandine to cover that front.

(And if your Superiors aren't powergaming in-universe, they're doing something wrong. It's a war down there. Real armies powergame all the time, otherwise we'd still use swords because the IRL firearms rules are broken.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azel

So sure, an Archangel can possess multiple hosts quite easily (whether you limit this to a handful or house rule it to max forces). But think about it. Even at 5000 forces (ginormous! hugantic! emongous!), that's only 1000 humans. Powerful? Immensely. But this is the Great War, Earth is very big, and humans have likely been over 1 million population globally for longer than our written history. Less than one person per 1,000 can make an impact, but really, in the end they're outnumbered. Unless...

We're not talking 5000 Forces, we're talking millions, possibly billions of Forces as what an Archangel should be wielding. One angel eats 9 Forces; one human (or one of David's human-shaped statue vessels that can be operated with Kyriotate resonance) only eats 5. Unless there's a cap on archangelic Forces, every single Force that's invested in a Superior is a Force wasted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azel

Thirdly: ... unless you have gross displays of Superior power. And that breaches another setting conceit of celestial Cold War, and disapproval by the Symphony over direct non-corporeal influence. Grotesque displays of power on such a scale will only serve to attract in-kind responses, which rapidly devolves the setting. Humans become irrelevant pawns and the Apocalypse will become nigh. This displeases God, registered via Symphonic disturbance, who really cares about humans (some may argue cares for them more so than celestials) and wanted a laissez faire approach towards them. And really, where's the Archangelic behavior in disobeying God?

Given how many times I get fed the line that Archangels should have Power Yes, it's ridiculous that they don't use this. Logical conclusion: they don't. I'm simply outlining what I think are the consequences of each way that you can limit their power.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azel

So, yes, I see where you can find the setting danger if you ruled Superiors (particularly Archangels) could do the things you believe they can. But pretty much the setting says they couldn't, wouldn't, and shouldn't. So feel free to have fun with them without fear! :)

The setting doesn't really think through the consequences of all the power combos the Archangels have, and honestly, as already stated, all-powerful plot devices are only useful for removing player agency by making them irrelevant by comparison.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason

Wouldn't he have to go celestial from EVERY vessel to utterly destroy him? Otherwise, the best you could do would be to send him back to Hell (presumably in Trauma) ... unless you could somehow also destroy his Heart. I'm not sure how long most Princes would stick around Limbo in that case. (I ran a game in which Mariel had been there since being "eaten" by Haagenti, but of all Princes, she's the one who'd feel most at home there.)

This raises another question, of course: how do you lure ALL of a Prince's Earthly manifestations to predictable places in the Symphony? The horrifying answer, perhaps, is to simultaneously do MANY things that could spawn infernal Tethers to his Word ... but he has to show up*personally to anchor them. In an especially dark/low contrast game, I could see Michael or Gabriel orchestrating a nuclear conflict just to wipe out Belial once and for all...

Funny - when the vague "Kill Belial" seed was ticking over in my head, inspired by moelane's New Crusade, I'd have thought the way to do it would be for the PCs to be one of a set of teams sent to destroy every Infernal Fire tether in the world, forcing Belial to come out to protect his Word - and, naturally, giving them the chance to gank one of his manifestations. If I ran that, of course, the PCs would naturally be hitting the *last* manifestation of Belial, for the sake of making them feel like protagonists (or they could just summon a Gabriel to do the real legwork, but that makes the fight a lot more boring for them, esp. as she's probably more cogent when there's only one of the Prince of Fire sharing her Word).

Jason · 08-16-2011, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omegonthesane

Funny - when the vague "Kill Belial" seed was ticking over in my head, inspired by moelane's New Crusade, I'd have thought the way to do it would be for the PCs to be one of a set of teams sent to destroy every Infernal Fire tether in the world, forcing Belial to come out to protect his Word - and, naturally, giving them the chance to gank one of his manifestations. If I ran that, of course, the PCs would naturally be hitting the *last* manifestation of Belial, for the sake of making them feel like protagonists (or they could just summon a Gabriel to do the real legwork, but that makes the fight a lot more boring for them, esp. as she's probably more cogent when there's only one of the Prince of Fire sharing her Word).

I'd like to say that I suggested making Fire tethers instead of destroying them because it's way too hard to destroy a Fire tether at a moment's notice. You can blow up a tether to Flowers and hope it shifts to Fire or Death, but blowing up a tether to Fire should probably just solidify it even more.

I'd like to say that. But really, it just never occurred to me to sugest anything but the most disturbing tactic. :-)

PenitentDemon · 08-16-2011, 08:31 PM

Id have Players weaken the enemy superior on earth, taking a few missions to weaken his word then let them see their own superior fly off on his mission of assasination... and return successful describe it cinematicly and say int he end, "without you, this would not have been possible, thank you now belial is dead, my sanity returns, and soon, all that is wrong will be put right again."

08-16-2011, 07:38 AM	#1
Omegonthesane Join Date: Aug 2010	How powerful should Superiors be? As written, Superiors are beyond-stat entities of GM fiat, who nonetheless are capable in principle of playing the same ground-level game as the PCs. This has great potential to break the setting if you think about it too hard. In particular: All Archangels can perform the Kyriotate resonance, possessing Forces equal to their enormous total. All Archangels have skills and stats greater than any angel they could create. Therefore unless there is a meaningful cap on even Archangel Forces, every Force that goes into making the merest Reliever is a force they'd have been better off taping onto themselves for their Kyrio-Res Abuse Army. (Especially David, who can make himself a pile of expendable statue Vessels to animate as well.) Since Demon Princes cannot perform this trick, if Superior Forces in general are completely uncapped, Heaven is being held back only by being irrational cowards, which strikes me as horribly un-angelic (and given how ruthless I can be about "what an angel should do", that's generally a bad sign IMO). I see three solutions to this. The easy solution: There is indeed a cap on Superior Forces. It's not one you're going to reach as a player character, it's probably higher than the canon 18 Force cap for stattable celestials, but it's present, and it's significantly smaller than what's needed to replace the entire angelic presence on Earth with an army of stone kittens. +: The game can be overthought without breaking and doesn't otherwise change. -: Some players will be greatly annoyed at the thought that no amount of careful planning will let their high level party corporeally assassinate e.g. Belial. The low-power solution: As suggested in GMG, Superiors are "just" 18-force celestials with ridiculous skill levels in sodding everything, Superior-only capabilities, more Essence capacity than most entire campaigns will ever see, and <expletive> bonuses from their Words. End result: they're functionally Bigger Than You, but not so strong that you can't trivially imagine how they could be brought low with the right combo of skills and Songs if they were on field duty. (Corporeal Charm + Corporeal Harmony = 12-strength mega-brute becomes 1-strength Stephen Hawking, for example, and in this model Baal would only have 12 strength... and presumably 6 levels of Large Weapon (Anything I Like Thank You Very Much) and a +6 Demon of The War bonus) +: No fundamental changes need to be made, and you can totally have corporeal fist-fights with the Princes of Hell themselves and come out alive. +: Easier to feel that your PCs have any meaning to their existence when the powers they work for physically cannot ever just step in and undo everything they did, as an actual mechanic rather than a line of fluff text forced in to preserve the game from overthinkers. -: ...Apparently wanting to fight a Demon Prince directly is badwrongfun? The Invisible Clergy solution: Going Superior is such an over-the-top state change that you stop meaningfully interacting with normal things, short of maintaining your Word. So, for example Eli is physically incapable of anything but creating on the corporeal realm, while Michael can only sustain full physical manifestation long enough for a short fight, and then only to fight. Presumably Lilith & Lucifer would be the exception here like she is sodding everywhere else, but Lilith's hardly a personal powerhouse anyway, while Lucifer's meant to be beyond even Superiors in apparent capability. +: Again, you can overthink without breaking everything, and there's a solid reason for Archangels to not get their hands dirty - they literally can't, as opposed to the difficult to swallow "oh they can't because Disturbance even though they're all capable of much more precision than that given what Songs and Resonances they can pull out". -: You're breaking the universe's rules every time a Superior interacts directly with combat or action sequences, and potentially breaking them every time Eli fiddles with an object to make an artefact. The aggravating bit is, most of my local group seem to prefer Option Four: Shut up and never question the state of things, and have yet to get a logical way around the Kyrio-Kitten Army exploit that doesn't even answer to Option One. Last edited by Omegonthesane; 08-16-2011 at 07:54 AM.

08-16-2011, 08:36 AM	#2
Jason Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Boston, MA	Re: How powerful should Superiors be? I interpreted the GMG as some combination of these, actually. (And a reminder: it does say that becoming a Superior is such a major leap in power and existence that it's not JUST being an 18-Force celestial with a bunch of Word Forces and access to other resonances. They can ALL be in multiple places, and realms of existence, at once.) I do try to make clear to my players that they will never succeed in assassinating a Prince without direct intervention from an Archangel. And even in that case, THEY'RE the backup for the Archangel, not the other way around. After all, Superiors and their Words are basically the pillars of the setting, and walking plot devices. If one dies, it's a massive change to the canon, and adds a level of complexity to the stuff the players need to memorize as distinct from the rule books they already own. And seeing as how my own players can't even remember all the names of the Bands and all the Princes' names and Words, I'm hesitant to make such changes unless it's for an entirely off-the-wall heretical game with the most experienced of them. (And yes, I do sometimes quiz my friends on Band resonances.) :-P

08-16-2011, 08:43 AM	#3
Omegonthesane Join Date: Aug 2010	Re: How powerful should Superiors be? Walking plot pillars they are, and I wouldn't expect a player party to celestially assassinate a Demon Prince without it being the focus of an entire campaign. But, especially given Superiors have their multi-manifesting ability, and the plot device of Vessels to allow you to kill demons without removing them from the setting, I feel high-level combats seriously including a vessel (not a Vassal) of Baal or Michael heightens the awesome without breaking the setting. (Plus, when the enemy successfully summons their Demon Prince, under options 2 & potentially 1 you can seriously have that Demon Prince manifest in a Vessel without it being the end for every angel in sight.) I didn't so much forget the multi-manifesting as think it went without saying. Going Superior's a massive state change; I tend to feel most of the "I can do this because I'm a Superior" abilities are orthogonal to their raw power, albeit dependent on raw power to fuel them. Esp. given the GMG explicitly cites the possibility of a celestial gaining the pure power levels [stats, Songs, & Essence capacity, for those who don't like Dragonball Z terminology :P] of a Superior without the skills and abilities that make one a Superior. As written, even for a permanent assassination, it's difficult to think how the PCs could even remotely be backup for an Archangel on a Gank Belial mission - like bringing a beehive as backup for the Hulk fighting the Abomination. That's not the same thing as a carefully planned removal of one comparatively piddly (though still exceedingly scary for PCs) vessel of a Superior that's running around, thus motivating Superiors to not just casually run around in Vessels even when it's really important. (The GMG has lots of stuff about the options; it spells out the houserule version where Archangels have actual stats that you can interact with. That still makes soul-killing them ridiculously harder than body-killing them by RAW, since they're Uber Word-bound and thus can haemhorrage Word-Forces instead of losing actual stats, whereas you can't.) Last edited by Omegonthesane; 08-16-2011 at 08:49 AM.

08-16-2011, 09:19 AM	#4
thorr-kan Join Date: Sep 2008	Re: How powerful should Superiors be? If I ever run an IN game, Superior manifestations will be 18-Force angels with 20 Word Forces (GMG), all their Attunements and Songs, Vessel/6, Toughness, Charisma, Role/6, and Status/6. That gives cunning and powerful PCs a chance to defeat a Superior, even if it's only a manifestation. But then, I like "Horatio at the bridge" scenarios.

08-16-2011, 11:38 AM	#5
JCD Join Date: May 2008 Location: Birthplace of the Worst Pizza on the Planet	Re: How powerful should Superiors be? I would split the difference. I would say a Manifestation of a Superior is 18 forces with all the bells and whistles and go from there. So chopping off a piece of a Superior is an accomplishment, but not the final straw for them. This gives the PCs a role if the object of an adventure is to cack Belial. If you can kill all his manifestations, then he dies. Unfortunately, he is smart enough to NOT just sit still. So you need to arrange for them to be hit simultaneously, or have a Superior or two help....and even then, you might just weaken them immensely. And ususally MOST Superiors keeps one left in Heaven/Hell as a back up. Which means you might need to arrange an attack on hostile territory.

08-16-2011, 11:51 AM	#6
Azel Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: South of the Town across from the City by the Bay	Re: How powerful should Superiors be? Unlikely, because it breaks setting conceit. Firstly: "Every manifestation requires a temporary investment of some of the Superior's Forces, splitting them up between manifestations, much as a Kyriotate does. Each one also divides the Superior's concentration. How many manifestations are possible depends on the Superior, but most find it difficult to maintain more than a handful at a time. Kyriotate Archangels can easily handle a dozen or more at once, while some Superiors, particularly Shedite Princes, don't like to split themselves up at all." (GMG, p.99) Secondly: The world's a big place, and any finite number pales in comparison. Further, recommended IN setting has it that celestials don't outnumber humans. Any single entity is going to be taxed beyond their abilities without some help (besides God - and one can argue, even He/She/It delegates). So besides the GMG defining Superiors' concentration to be a more finite resource than their forces, even direct forces cannot micromanage enough resources. So sure, an Archangel can possess multiple hosts quite easily (whether you limit this to a handful or house rule it to max forces). But think about it. Even at 5000 forces (ginormous! hugantic! emongous!), that's only 1000 humans. Powerful? Immensely. But this is the Great War, Earth is very big, and humans have likely been over 1 million population globally for longer than our written history. Less than one person per 1,000 can make an impact, but really, in the end they're outnumbered. Unless... Thirdly: ... unless you have gross displays of Superior power. And that breaches another setting conceit of celestial Cold War, and disapproval by the Symphony over direct non-corporeal influence. Grotesque displays of power on such a scale will only serve to attract in-kind responses, which rapidly devolves the setting. Humans become irrelevant pawns and the Apocalypse will become nigh. This displeases God, registered via Symphonic disturbance, who really cares about humans (some may argue cares for them more so than celestials) and wanted a laissez faire approach towards them. And really, where's the Archangelic behavior in disobeying God? So, yes, I see where you can find the setting danger if you ruled Superiors (particularly Archangels) could do the things you believe they can. But pretty much the setting says they couldn't, wouldn't, and shouldn't. So feel free to have fun with them without fear! :)

08-16-2011, 08:31 PM	#10
PenitentDemon Join Date: Aug 2008	Re: How powerful should Superiors be? Id have Players weaken the enemy superior on earth, taking a few missions to weaken his word then let them see their own superior fly off on his mission of assasination... and return successful describe it cinematicly and say int he end, "without you, this would not have been possible, thank you now belial is dead, my sanity returns, and soon, all that is wrong will be put right again."